www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Implementing the New Liturgy: how we are doing it.

My pastor said the music is bad so he just made his own pamphlet with the new words and put them in the pews. So far it is still weird.

Rusyn31,

Tuned in again this morning to Holy Ghost liturgy broadcast, very disappointing. How small is the attendance post-RDL? Very sad, indeed!

Ungcsertezs

Ungcertezs,

The attendance is about the same, but nobody participates...As I said before, many of us used to help cantor, but now we don't. I do not pick up the green monsters. I put them in another pew because of the "pew" they are making (pun intended).

We have our big 100th anniversary in a few weeks. I think after that is done, people may start leaving (I am seriously considering leaving as well). We just spent a lot of money renovating the church for our anniversary, it looks great! It would be a shame if our 100th anniversary is overshadowed by this travesty!

I have approx. 50% of the active membership on my petition.

Those that did not sign the petition are either the converts from other churches that do not know our Slavonic-Rusyn Liturgy or those that really don't care either way and are so apathetic to it.

Some like the changes, but they are few and far between the rest of us. They are the ones that have successfully been indoctrinated by the proponents of this change.

Again, how traditional can a Liturgy be when you need a Master's Degree in Music to read the notes? Isn't it strange that we need music all of a sudden? Why is it that the old books did not need music?

Things that make you go......hmmm.

I am shocked and sadden by all the negative talk about the Liturgy. I grew up in PA as an Orthodox married a Byzantine Catholic, over 50, cannot read music and cannot carry a turn but I attended Liturgy last night and was able to follow in the book (easier than the old, it tells you what page to go to) and also attempted to sing with the 2 cantors and 20 people that were in church. We did make mistakes but I came away feeling good inside because I was in my church. We should go to church because of the Love of God and prayer. Do the words and melody changes really mean that much that you must be so cruel in your hearts? Many of the songs before the changes are not the same as I grew up with but that did not stop me from being an active member of my current church. Life goes on, stop the negative feelings and put joy in you life. If you are truly a Byzantine Catholic you love the Church, the Body and Blood of Christ, the Liturgy, the icons, the smell of incense and you will stay and you should participate. I cannot understand how a NJ priest can say the music is bad so he just made his own pamphlet with the new words(shame on him and the Bishop should be aware of his attitude.)
Do I think we should have used the time, resources and money for something more important, in my opinion yes, maybe the 6th, 7th, 8th and High School God With Us series for ECF completed, but that will come. How many versions of the Stars Spangle Banner have you heard but that did that stop you from going to the Pirates or Steelers games or worse leaving the US. Speaking of changes, I wish all the churches would clean up their websites and teach the parishioners why we do not have "First Communion". Children learn from the parents and all the negative adults are sending the wrong message to the young children and teens. Hope the Pittsburgh ByzanTEEN rally this week has a positive attitude toward the Liturgy. A church friend and I went to a Melkite church for a Holy Day, we participated in the Liturgy, sang the different melodies and came away feeling like we were at home there. In the whole scheme of life
the changes are minor as compared to the world, let�s not have an internal war over this.

Peace Begins With You

I agree. I am shocked and saddened too. It is all such a waste of time and effort, that could have been put to positive use elsewhere!

Where are the threads on evangelization, where is the outreach for starting new missions and new parishes? Think of what could have been done with that money and time and effort.

But the fact remains, there is a lot of negative talk about the new Liturgy, because it is really really bad. It is a sloppy translation, with so many mistakes and errors in it. It is a shame!

Negative talk is bad, but there would be none of it, if we hadn't been handed this terrible corruption of our Liturgy.

Nick

I feel sad that those few younger Ruthenian Byzantine Catholics
(like those attending the Teen Rally at Camp Nazareth) have to deal with the RDL and not a full Ruthenian Recension liturgical experience. It is sad to know that their Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church could become extinct before they reach adulthood! If only the monetary resources spent on the RDL would have been spent on evangelization and new missionary activities.

U-C

No one likes to see negativity at any level. With the RDL I've seen it. But what is even more sad is the level of APATHY that I've seen. Many have given up or just moved on to another rite or Orthodoxy, etc. Apathy is what should concern us all. At least negativity shows there is some concern and emotion left out there. But time after time I see those who simply don't care and are moving on and not looking back, and the way they see it, they aren't leaving their church, their church left them. There is no plan of evangelization anywhere that I've seen (I'd love to have someone point it out). We have been a church in contraction, that contraction is continuing and now is even being accelerated by the RDL. How are we back filling these departures?

Another subject that hasn't been discussed on this board is that now that Pope Benedict has given permission for the Latin Mass, our best 'evangelization' tool is gone. The people who couldn't stand the Novus Ordo now have a place to go and those who were going to leave will now stay. So there's less people that will be coming over and a few Latins will probably return.

The bottom line is that this cannot be sustained. Pittsburgh and Parma Eparchies will face major closing of their churches unfortunately sooner than most think. Go to the parishes in these eparchies, look at the congregations, add 20 years, what do you see? I don't know how this all ends but it doesn't end well.

How sad, an evangelization effort really needed and needs to occur, instead we are spinning our wheels with 1960s whims in our Liturgy.

Monomakh

Kellie,
Thank you for your great post. I agree with the above. Especially this:

This is a very deep spiritual insight.

Nevertheless, even seemingly difficult people who rant need our unconditional love. To paraphrase St. Therese of Lisieux - there are many flowers in God's garden and some of us are prickly pears.

You will note that some of these complainers began their campaign well before the Revised Divine Liturgy was issued. You will also see how patiently their complaints have been answered by the HEAD of the Cantor Institute, priests and others. Do you know of any other Church where the people in charge would take so much time to answer so many questions?

We must contribute in positive, concrete acts of love to lead others to Christ. Do I teach? Do I pray? Liturgy is "the work of God." It shouldn't be automatic drive time when we go to the Divine Liturgy. I've learned a lot by reading both the complaints and the answers but this forum has become a tape-loop.

I agree with you. I thank you. I applaud you.

Pravda!

U-C

Kellie wrote:
And Rufinus responded:
Note the tactics that Kellie and Rufinus are using. Instead of responding to the real issues that have been raised for discussion they respond as if the issue is one of personal attack against those who have prepared the revision. To say that one�s work must be accepted as is because to disagree with it is cruel to the person who has worked hard is absurd. Most of us in the real world are judged not by how hard we have worked but by the quality of our work. Those who prepared the liturgical revision (rubrics, texts and music) are talented, worked hard and meant well. But they worked without consulting pastors, cantors or laity. Few saw the changes before they were promulgated. The bishops are not now open to hearing their concerns and do not answer letters. Of course the people are going to vent. The bishops have forced upon them major changes to the primary way they relate to God. They are being forced to abandon the prayers and melodies they have prayed for a lifetime and to relearn something that was prepared by a committee who feels that their Ruthenian recension is so inferior that it cannot be allowed to be prayed in full. Is it any wonder the entire Church is in an uproar?

--

The reforms should be opposed because they are wrong. Rome was correct in instructing us to restore the Ruthenian Liturgy according to the official books. We need to finally accept it and pray it, in a translation that is accurate and not full of mistakes and agendas. If we pray it fully it will form us and restore our Church. [The authentic Ruthenian Liturgy works everywhere it is prayed. The first rounds of the reforms in 1988 in Parma and in 1995 in Passaic are responsible for people leaving, and this has been demonstrated.]

The RDL is nothing more than a deformation of Liturgy. It impedes the Liturgy�s power to uplift and transform our souls and bodies.

Thank you for the voice of reason. I once worked with a man in sales who was excellent at bringing new business to the company. However, he was losing clients out the back door as fast as he was bringing them in the front door. Guess what??? He was fired. The quality of his work was below par -- in the "real" world it does matter. And it should matter, even more, in the church world.

Let me address this with some examples from my parish... We have one lady who walks with a walker but still rides the bus for an hour and a half just to attend Divine Liturgy. She has stopped attending because of the music...

We have one gentleman who just turned 80 yrs old this past Sunday. He has stopped attending because he cannot listen to the music any longer...

We also have someone who is in a time of discernment concerning service to the Lord. This person knew of the changes however did not think they would be as bad as they are. She is discerning whether or not to remain in our church at all or to move on the Orthodox church...

And you ask if the music and words are REALLY that important???

I've attended the Divine Liturgy in the Greek Orthodox Church as well as the Byzantine Catholic Church and I haven't noticed too much of a difference. I'm happy that the filioque has been removed and that Theotokos has been restored.

I'm not being judgemental, just curious. Why does it make you happy the filoque has been removed and Theotokas restored? Again, I'm not being judgemental, just curious.

Tim

When did she disappear???