www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Moscow Patriarchate says no way for UGC Patriarchate

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear ChristTeen287:

Christians should answer bleakness with hope. Our creed bids us to optimism: we look to the life of the world to come. In face of the seeming hopeless situation of bickering, we need to perservere with hope.

Also, I agree that "there must be novel and drastic changes in this "ecumenical" relation with the MP", as visa versa. That "drastic" change should be the Christ-centred love.

God be with you.

Christopher
Armenian Catholic

I personally feel bad about this reaction from the MP. Everyone accepts the fact that, in the eventual reunion of the Orthodox church with the See of Peter, all Eastern Catholics will be assimilated back into their mother Orthodox Churches (i.e. if they have any). I assume also that even if Cardinal Husar is made Patriarch, he can opt to give way to the MP (knowing his humble bearing). In this case, if the Ukrainian Eastern Catholics is under the MP it will be assimilated into the MP. But if it is under the break-away (sorry for this word, no offense meant) Ukrainian Orthodox, it will be assimilated into UOC. But WHICH IS WHICH? Is not the Ukrainian Gk. Catholic Church being pulled as a rope in a tug-o-war between the MP & the UOC? Is this not a war of hegemony? Please, enlighten me.

So what if they do not want him patriarch of the Uk.Gk.Catholic Church? If the Holy Spirit wills it, Cardinal Husar may well be the next pope! If not the Patriarch of the Uk.Gk.Catholic Church, then he may well be the Patriarch of the West. Who knows??? As a Catholic, we do not mind if the Patriarch of the West will come from the East or from the West. So long as this is God's will and it is his decision, we all say "Amen!!!". In the early days of the Church, we fondly recall that some Popes were eastern. St. Peter himself was eastern in origin.

(My apologies if I may have erred in using the incorrect names of the different Churches I've mentioned above. My only prayer is that all these come into the one fold of Christ, its Head!)

Dear Antonio,

As we Ukrainians say, you are "mixing up beans with cabbage" here.

The Moscow Patriarchate is not the "Mother Orthodox Church" of the Ukrainian Catholics - never was, never will be.

The Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine changed its name to "Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate" when Ukraine finally broke free of the Soviet imperial grip.

There is very little that is "Ukrainian" about this Church culturally and in every which way.

It is slowly losing ground in Ukraine and it is just a matter of time before this process is completed.

There are two main Ukrainian Orthodox autocephalous Churches that broke from Moscow and are therefore "uncanonical" in the eyes of Moscow and "world Orthodoxy."

The Russians themselves often categorize the "Kyivan Church" to include the Ukrainian "uniates" and the "uncanonical offspring of the apostate monk Filaret," along with the Ukrainian Autocephalous Church (equally reprehensible in Russian eyes).

Huzar has no reason to even want to become Pope, or the Patriarch of the Particular Latin Church.

He is already acclaimed as the Patriarch of the Particular Kyivan/Ukrainian Orthodox Church in communion with Rome.

He is ALREADY EQUAL to the Patriarch of the West and there is nothing "higher" he can aspire to.

Rome has its politics with Moscow - we know that the Union of Brest-Litovsk was an experiment to see if, by this means, Rome could bring Moscow over to its obedience.

I think the Patriarchal Ukrainian Church has come of age and no longer feels it needs Rome's ratification for the status it has always had anyway - did not Rome say the Ukrainian Church was always a Major Archiepiscopate and is this not equal to a Patriarchate in terms of power?

Alex

Dear Friends:

I am very happy that they finally came out with it.

Moscow's beliefs and intentions have been clearly presented and stated.

My mother always told me its not nice to argue with crazy people.

I have no doubt that Rome will respond with what is appropriate.

Therefore may one be slightly presumptuous and say:

God Grant Many Years to
his Beatitude
Patriarch
Lubomyr Husar
of Kiew And All Rus.

defreitas

Ad Multos Annos to Patriarch Lubomyr!

Certainly the long suffering Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church retained the right and has certainly proven her right to be what She has proclaimed Herself to be! The pain of suffering and the blood of martyrs is clear evidence of the strength of the Ukrainian Patriarchal Church. She needs no approval, but I hope that the recognition of who She is will be forthcoming.

I know that Patriarch Lubomyr can fill no higher role than that of Patriarch. But what strength and wisdom he could share as the touchstone of unity for our Communion of Churches!

Steve

Dear Alex and Steve:

I know this hurts but a Patriarch can and, should aspire to, be of service to the Universal (Catholic) Church by becoming Pope, THE Universal Pastor.

In this sense, a Patriarch of a Particular Church is not equal to the Pope.

AmdG

We have a Universal Pastor - Christ our King and our God. AMIN!

S Bogom -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Dear Amado,

Number one, Father Mark is right!

Number two, to be "first among equals" implies equality as an a priori.

The fact is that, all things being equal in a future united Church according to God's Will and good time, it is the Church of Rome itself that was formerly accorded a first among equals status at Ecumenical Councils and HAD NO OTHER INVOLVEMENT in the lives of other Particular Churches.

Patriarch Lubomyr is equal to the Patriarch of the West in every which way - to say otherwise is to deny a basic and fundamental reality of the Patriarchate itself.

When the Pope speaks or acts as "Universal Pastor" who is also "servant of the servants of God" he does so TOGETHER WITH and in the name of the Patriarchs and Bishops united with him. He does not act alone, apart from the Church or its bishops.

So when the Pope speaks, Patriarch Lubomyr speaks as well - to the world and whoever else wants to listen.

Alex

Dear Defreitas,

Some of our patriarchalists insist on "His Holiness" for our patriarch. I don't know . . .

And it's "Kyiv" not "Kiev!"

The former is the Ukrainian spelling for the Ukrainian capital of Ukraine.

And it is internationally acknowledged as the legal spelling.

The MP still does refer to it as "Kiev" though.

Some imperialist habits die hard, I suppose . . .

Alex

Dear Alex,
As I had said before, There's a certain order (you know which one)that will only commemorate Kyr Lubomyr as Patriarch only if Rome tells them to. This order is pretty strong down here, about 80 to 85% of our priests belong to this order and they are the ones that deal the cards. I'm not sure of how things are around the world, but it seems that the United States is leading in respect to commemorating Kyr Lubomyr as Patriarch, at least the bishops are wearing Kobluks (Kyr Losten, Kyr Moskal and Kyr Soroka)I don't know about the others. What's the situation like in Canada? Because I think Brazil will be the last country to commemorate Kyr Lubomyr as Patriarch. I think that I've asked for this before but I really would like to have numbers so that I could back up my arguments when speaking with certain people down here. Any comments or statistics around?
Lauro

Dear Amado,

Thanks for your comments.

It is my understanding that one of the services provided to the Sister Churches by the Servant of the Servants of God is that of being the touchstone of Unity and Spokesman for the Churches when appropriate. This is a unique service, and in that sense is different, I think. But if he is the Servant of Servants, higher seems to be a term that does not compute.

Thanks for hearing me out!

Steve

My response to this announcement of the MOP is as follows:

A. I would have been surprised if their response had been otherwise.

B. Who really cares what they think any more? No matter what UGCC or the RCC does, in their eyes it will be the wrong move. Face it, as long as any portion of the various Particular Churches in union with the Pope of Rome exists, they ain't going to be happy.

C. Is it really anyone's business what we do except for our people? If they don't like us then just ignore us. Throwing tantrums like this doesn't do anything except make them look like fools.

D. I also believe that it is time that Rome stops worrying about MOP and take care of HER OWN! Sometimes I feel that we Eastern Catholics are like the child whose mother forgets her birthday, but always throws a big party for the neighbor's kid. It isn't fair or just to us. But who am I?

Don, the Irish Ukrainian Catholic

(By the way, next Monday is the 1st anniversary of my being received into the UGCC!)

Dear Steven,

Who da Man?

Yo da Man!

Alex

Dear Lauro,

Many parishes in Canada commemorate the Patriarch and if the U.S. is doing the same, all that they know in this department they learned from us.

I'm not bragging, that's just the way it is . . .

Even our own BASILIAN priest commemorates the Patriarch.

He spent some time in Ukraine and came back a Patriarchalist . . .

Perhaps you people in Brazil could send some of your "home-grown Basilian nuts" to Ukraine to get similarly inspired?

(Don't you think I really deserve some credit for coming up with the above, eh, Lauro? ).

I also thought that the RC Church in Latin America was taking our Basilian and Salesian Fathers to their Church since it was so difficult to get celibates in a culture that measures manhood by the number of children (and women) they have?

Alex

Alex,

The "Basilian Nuts" was fantastic. Unfortunately translating it into Portuguese doesn't work out.
The Roman Catholic Church down here isn't having such a big problem with priests, I mean they do but it isn't as critical as it is in other countries.
The problem with our Ukie community down here is that we are poor. We don't have the money to send our priests or semenarians to Ukraine. So, our priests do their Theology course in the western Latin perception, and because of that we lose out on everything.
Lauro