www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Declining attendance in the Byzantine Catholic Church

So, whats the difference if we evangelize to Jose, O'Malley, or Smith? I think we have just the same chance of getting them to show up on Sunday as we do an ethnic Slav.

The fallen away ethnic Slav (or Romanian) used to attend the church though, and he or she most likely has family that are members. Whether one is EC, RC, Orthodox or Protestant, they all know about the many people who only show up at Christmas and Easter. Those are the people you've got to bring back. It may be hard, but I've known many people who have returned to the church after 20, 30 and even 40 years.

I don't know if the ethnic background makes a huge difference. If someone is unhappy with their religion, whatever their background, they'll shop around and find one that works for them. I know two women who became Roman Catholic after not finding their original option to be congenial; one was from an evangelical background, the other non-evangelical protestant. A friend's parents were from separate religions (Christian and Muslim). She shopped around and became Orthodox.*

*None of these people was named Jose, O'Malley or Smith.

Given that there are at least 500,000 Eastern Catholics in this country, I wonder why we are not more well-known as a religious group.

Maybe people in the media don't make the distinction between Western and Eastern Catholics?

It was some time before I was aware of the tradition; Catholicism was even a mystery until my uncle converted. I had no grasp of the richness of the Eucharist when I was growing up. Maybe Eastern Catholics are not well known because, from a secular/Protestant point of view, it would take much effort to truly appreciate the rite. (Effort from learning, through experience, or from an openness of the ear and heart.)

Eastern Christianity in general seems invisible in this country, even though Christianity is fundamentally an Eastern faith.

Reasons for declinig attendance in the Byzantine Catholic Church, as I see them:

1. Dying off of our parents, grandparents, and great-grandparents. The founding generation of Byzantine Catholics in America is just about gone and the baby boomers are starting to go as well. There is no replacement of these numbers. The number of children today is drastically different today than in 1920.

2. Our advanced ADHD, and "throw-away" secular society. If you can't have a Liturgy in under 45 minutes, then find a church that will do so....because football starts shortly afterwards (especially if you are like me and live in "Steeler Country"...GO STEELERS!). This usually means Roman Catholic transformation. Also, if there is the slightest controversy, or something that is done adversely, one automatically leaves, or "throws-away" for something else.

3. If you look further into the demographics, you see a definite trend downwards from the "Elko Reformation" of the 1950's. This was our first latinization period. We loved our Slavonic Liturgy and Slavic culture (whether it be Rusyn, Ukrainian, Slovak, etc. - even the non-Slavic cultures - Hungarian included as well) and hated to see the "Americanization and Latinization" of our culture (thanks in part to Joseph McCarthy). Now, with the current latinization trend of the Revised Liturgy and the elimination of Slavonic in the pew books, and this sudden thing with going back to the "original Greek translations...not those of our Apostles to the Slavs Cyril and Methodius", those of us that were able to keep our great Slavic traditions are now looking for new Rites, that are preserving those traditions without problems.

4. A decline in the confidence of our leaders. Sorry to say this, but I am always hearing people complain about their parish priests, or the bishops (collective, not one in particular), or someone in this Ministry or that Council, or at the Seminary or at the Archeparchial Offices or at the Chancery. Have we lost faith in our leaders? And if so, why is that the case?


I am not a priest, or a clergyman, a theologian, or a philosopher, nor do I play one on TV or pretent to be one. I am a simple person working 40+ hours a weel and attending Graduate School in my "spare time" to make a better life for myself and family. In essence, we are a typical Byzantine Catholic family. If this is how we see it, how many other nuclear families of 4 persons see it this way?

I know I am looking at other Rites, because of what I think is a travesty over this RDL nonsense. If it wasn't broke, why fix it! We were told in no uncertain terms that our family's leaving would be an acceptable loss......hard to believe, huh? Well, how many other "acceptable losses" can the Byzantine Church take, especially now over the RDL, and seeing the latest demographics?

This seems to be the way the common parishioner views this situation of declining attendance. I know that this is how at least 1/2 of my parish feels, this is evident by the signatures on my petition to restore the Liturgy brought to America by our Rusyn ancestors.

Unfortunately, those that need to see it this way either don't want to, or don't care to.

What recent latinizations do you speak of?

As stated in my post...

3....Now, with the current latinization trend of the Revised Liturgy and the a.) elimination of Slavonic in the pew books, and b.) this sudden thing with going back to the "original Greek translations...not those of our Apostles to the Slavs Cyril and Methodius", those of us that were able to keep our great Slavic traditions are now looking for new Rites, that are preserving those traditions without problems.

Modernization (with the "new" Liturgy) + Americanization (gradual elimination of Slavonic as well as our culture, (changing official name from Ruthenian (Rusyn) in our title to seem more Western) = Latinization.

I want a church where I can go and hear Slavonic regularly, not only on special occasion, or when the priest feel nostalgic every once-in-a-while...

I want a church where I can speak Rusyn or Slovak or Ukrainian, even Hungarian to others without being called a "dumb Hunkey", or an "old geyser", even though I am part of Generation X in my 30's.

I want a church that embraces our Slavic heritage, not reviles it.

I want a church that puts on Jaslickary (Bethlehem plays) and Selske Svadby (Village Weddings), and has choirs that sing Cervena Ruza, Daj ze Boze Dobryj Cas, Ja Rusyn Byl, Slovak Som a Slovak Budem, and Tancuj, Tancuj, and many others in that nasaly peasant village voice.

Many people are also thinking on leaving for the same reasons as I have just stated.

Many OCA churches in the Pittsburgh area have picked up former Byzantine Catholics because they embrace these things, and not frown upon them.

I come from southern Illinois and I don't know what any of those Rusyn words mean. If you want your (our) churches to grow, you have to speak the language of the people. Otherwise, be prepared to live in a Rusyn ghetto of your own making.

Do I appreciate other cultures and their customs? Sure... more than most other Americans. But, Americans are now being raised on TV and have attention spans equivalent to that of the common jackrabbit. Most Americans don't even know their own state capitals, the location of Washington DC on the map, or even what an Orthodox Church is. How can you expect a person to attend a Church (which most Americans find already boring) in which the Liturgy is not in English?

If you want a church that does those things and speaks those languages, you may have to go back to Eastern Europe where these customs started.

Considering that most Americans are Protestants and find even the Novus Ordo Mass to be too exotic and too ritualized, how can you expect a church which offers a Liturgy which is even more exotic, longer, and in a different language to grow?

Once again, I love the Divine Liturgy and I plan to join the UGCC when I move back to St. Louis. But even the DL in St. Louis is half Ukrainian and half English. I don't see the populace switching to or converting to a Church en masse which doesn't have a Liturgy in the native language. Besides, why do you think that Slavonic was used in the Liturgy in the first place?

I never stated that this will ever happen.......but it is nice to dream of a life that once was at one point in time.

Rusyns are having considerable troubles using their own language in churches in the homeland because of the "modernization" policies through church politicking in Slovakia and Ukraine.

I have gone to several Catholic and Orthodox churches that are totally in Slavonic for Liturgy and then in Polish, Croatian, Ukrainian, Serbian, Slovak, etc. even the homily. How is that possible if you have to speak the language of the people.....unless that really isn't either the language of the people, or the language they want to hear?

You are right that the populace won't switch or convert because of the language of the Liturgy. That being said, there have been previous conversions en masse because of church politics (OCA, ACROD, etc.) which are starting to rear their ugliness again today.

What's the saying, "Those that do not remember history...."

In other countries, in which Slavonic is more familiar, this is not an issue. In America, as you well know as an educator, there is a huge gap in our education compared to Europe. The average college graduate will not even read one book after his/her matriculation.

I've also heard it said that the average American has a third grade education. Judging by the poor grammar and punctuation in the popular media, I would agree with the previous statement that I wrote.

As I've written before, the "MTV Generation" is also "Generation ADD" and Protestant. Remember that the average protestant idea of going to church is sitting in a huge stadium-like auditorium and listening to some guy talk for an hour and a half. There is no Liturgy at all for them, just a lecture. They don't even think that an English speaking Roman Catholic who attends the Novus Ordo is a Christian. How much more so a member of the Melkite Catholic Church who attends a Divine Liturgy in Arabic?

One of the big controversies of the day is whether or not to mandate that English be the national language with the massive influx of Spanish speaking immigrants. Considering that over half of Americans will be speaking Spanish in 50 years, I'd say that restoring an "obscure" (by American standards) language to the Liturgy is not going to help gain more membership. Maybe the Divine Liturgy should start being offered in Spanish!

"Considering that most Americans are Protestants and find even the Novus Ordo Mass to be too exotic and too ritualized, how can you expect a church which offers a Liturgy which is even more exotic, longer, and in a different language to grow?"

A good point. If the objective of such a mass were to bring its attendants into communion with the rich traditions of the Church and, through prayer and humility, to bring them to fully receive the blessing of the Eucharist, then there is a very delicate balance to maintain in bringing such a rite to the vernacular.

For a determined convert, the prayers of a foreign language offers little barrier. The meanings of the prayers can be taught in such a way that in chanting or speaking the words of the prayer, is a prayer of that convert's heart. But the problem is that most converts may not be so determined at first, or even in time. For the meaning of mass to be real for them, there would be many barriers. The strongest would be all they had been taught to think of such matters. Of those, the hardest for some to conquer is their idea of what a pastor or priest should be doing, especially if their pastor's only function was for a sermon, general management, and some counsel when needed. That viewpoint would come from many Evangelical Christians. I converted (to Roman Catholicism) from that group, and before I knew better I believed what I was taught. I believed that Mary was just another woman and not too significant until I started thinking about, from the Gospel of Luke, what it truly meant for her to have "treasured up all these things and pondered them in her heart." But then I was determined in my pursuit of truth.

Evangelical Christians have a hard time accepting high-church Protestants, there is an even higher barrier for Roman Catholicism (they may know nothing of Eastern Catholicism). If an Evangelical were to jump from a non-denominational church to an Episcopalian church, he may hear "at least you haven't become a Papist." The anti-Catholicism rooted in that tone is not as intense as it was in the 19th or the early 20th centuries, but it is still can show itself. My grandfather is a Protestant minister and, as he sees it, I've taken a straight ticket to hell in my conversion. He won't say it to my face, but he will give me tracts and books which speak of the "whore of Babylon" and other matters which he would not confront me with in oral arguments. So the pressures are not limited to the theological; social and family pressures play a major role.

The Church is at an advantage in that it does not kowtow to liberalism and tolerate openly homosexual priests or bishops and for its stance on moral and family issues in general. Many Evangelicals have learned to deeply respect the Church for that very reason. It has led to converts, but the deepest impact has been in a shedding of anti-Catholicism among quite a few Evangelicals. Unfortunately, there is also a push in that movement for an "openness" to all things theological, as long as you proclaim a believe in Christ and are then born again, as nothing else matters. Even when doctrine or interpretations are passionately believed, they can disagree on what is seen as non-important matters and "agree to disagree" while embracing their unity in Christ, from that proclamation and by being born-again.

For someone in that position who feels drawn, a liturgy in the vernacular would still be foreign to them, but through patience they may begin to understand enough to go to the priest for instruction.

Terry

I am not trying to throw mud, but honesty is expected. Sex scandals, femin-ism, and homosexuality are three big culprits. Straight men don't want to be associated with such a culture. The men leave and don't want to participate or give their support. I must also add a fourth reason: effeminate worship.

The same thing is happening in some Protestant communities and they too are suffering major declines in membership. A number of former Christian houses of worship have closed and were bought by Muslims. Their communities are growing. Ask them what they think of homosexuality and feminism.

Eddie