www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Immaculate Conception

Sorry, Chris, but that is patently false. There are indications that Mary was conceived in the same state of original righteousness/justice as Eve, particularly in the Syriac fathers. It was not as if the Latins simply invented a doctrine with no reference to the fathers. While the papal definition comes primarily from a Latin Augustinian perspective, to say there was no concept of it before is just plain wrong and a rereading of history.

I will say, though, that there was not unanimity on this question even as late as the Middle Ages in the Latin West.

God bless,

Gordo

Gordo...

Thanks for your post...the only concept of an IC were those who spoke against a need for it...

IC is not needed in Eastern Thought...there is no need for this even to come up...

Chris

Chris,

The following nine points against the errors of Pelagius from the Council of Carthage were accepted explicitly by the Ecumenical Councils of Ephesus and Nicea II:



http://cantuar.blogspot.com/2006/02/must-eastern-orthodox-believe-in.html

The notion that any understanding of original sin had no place in the Orthodox tradition of the East is simply an unfortunate myth. That said, the Church rightly rejected certain excesses of Augustinian thought on the matter as he developed his apologetic against the infamous Pelagius.

God bless,

Gordo

An interesting site with patristic quotes pertaining to the subject of Original Sin:

http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/num54.htm

It is a myth that I, neither put forth, nor one that I would agree with. There definitely is original sin in Orthodox Tradition!!!

Chris

Why?

Chris,

Sorry, I guess I was playing the game "Jump to Conclusions".

[Linked Image]

I assumed you were saying it was unnecessary because of the purported denial of original sin (particularly the residual "stain" of sin interpreted analogically) by Orthodox tradition.

God bless,

Gordo

Gordo...

Not a problem...

except for:

Original sin is clear in Orthodox Teachings...anyone who would deny it exists I would question their Orthodoxy...However, there are differences in the Eastern and Western Concept of Original Sin...I wish I had the time to dive back in to explain...I know there are others here who could better than I could...

Chris

If this quote from Irenaeus is accepted dogmatically as reflecting the faith:

"Indeed, THROUGH the first Adam, WE offended God by not observing His command."

And if it is essential to believe this in order to be a Christian, then I am no longer a Christian, since Christianity teaches that God is unjust.

Joe

In light of the following:

"6. We confess we are sinners because it is true, not from humility.
7. The saints ask for forgiveness for their own sins.
8. The saints also confess to be sinners because they are."

Was Mary a saint? If we had asked her during her earthly life whether she was a sinner, what would she have said? And so we have one saint without sin? Yet, Christ alone is without sin? If Mary was without sin, then why couldn't she affect our salvation in place of Christ?

Joe

The quote from Origen,

"EVERY SOUL that is BORN into flesh is SOILED by the filth of wickedness and SIN....And if it should seem necessary to do so, there may be added to the aforementioned considerations [referring to previous Scriptures cited that we all sin] the fact that in the Church, Baptism is given FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS; and according to the usage of the Church, Baptism is given EVEN TO INFANTS. And indeed if there were nothing in infants which REQUIRED a remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of Baptism would seem SUPERFLUOUS. (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3)"

Do my Othodox brethren agree with this? St. Gregory of Nyssa says that infants are innocent and without sin. Who should one believe?

And isn't the western notion of original sin intinsically unjust? After all, it says that God condemns all of humanity for the sin of one man. None of us asked to be born. None of us asked to be here and to be born sinners and to be born in this condition. What kind of being would create individuals in a state where they were doomed to death when they didn't even have self-consciousness yet? If this is Christian doctrine, then Christianity teaches that God is unfair in his dealings with humans.

Joe

Oh don't worry, I've nothing more to say. I'm going back into silent watching. God bless.

Joe

Joe,

Orthodoxy teaches that Adam's original sin made all of his descendents mortal, but no one is born sinful.

God bless,
Todd

Todd, what does it mean that all of his descendants were made mortal? Does this mean that physical, natural death is inherited because of Adam's sin? Or does it mean that what would have been a peaceful, transition to eternal life (i.e. falling asleep at the end of our natural course of biological life) became a state of fear and anxiety (i.e. death in the negative sense of the term). And it seems that the Fathers do teach the Augustinian, western view if we take the quotes that Gordo linked to at face value.

I've come to realize that I am a Pelagian and that Pelagias is probably a saint and was probably right and that the Church was wrong to condemn him. If this means that I am condemned and excommunicated then so be it. I will have to live without communion.

Joe

It means that mortality and a principle of non-being have been introduced into humanity. Christ, by His incarnation and paschal mystery, reverses the effects of Adam's sin, thus restoring life and giving ever being to mankind, for as we sing in the liturgy, "By death He trampled death, and to those in the graves He granted life."

As far as your second comment is concerned, the soteriological position ascribed to Pelagius is heretical, because it posits the idea that grace is not necessary for salvation.

P.S. - As far as the quotations given on that webpage are concerned, they all need to be read in the light of the overall context of the treatise they are taken from, while also taking into account what the author has said in other treatises, and -- of course -- they would have to be read in their original language. The Augustinian view of man's nature is heretical (i.e., Manichaean) and cannot be endorsed by an Orthodox Christian.

Well, Pelagius himself never said that grace wasn't necessary. Even if Adam had not sinned, grace would be necessary in order to perfect his natural virtue and deify Adam.

Joe