www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Declining attendance in the Byzantine Catholic Church

What is "effeminate worship"? Prayer? The Sacred Heart of Jesus?

What would, in turn be masculine worship?

Terry

Off hand my guess would be that he's referring to churches where you have altar girls, women readers and woman assisting in giving out Communion.

Personally, the reason I attend a Ukrainian Catholic Church as much or more than I do Latin ones, is because I can't make it to the Latin Mass as often as I used to, and most of the other reverantly conducted Masses are further away as well. That doesn't mean I don't appreciate the Ukrainian church in it's own right, but to be honest, the last few times I attended a nearby RC Church, after a few minutes of enduring the nonsense that passes as worship I immediately began asking myself "Why didn't you go to the Ukrainian Catholic Church instead". There I get to pray before a large beautiful iconostasis (with a Crucifix at the top) instead of Touchdown Jesus or an alleged statue of the Blessed Mother that looks like it was made on Easter Island.

Terry,

Men have become more turned off with Christian worship these days. There is nothing there that attracts them - as straight men. I see it all the time. Guys find more solace in golf, fishing, sports (the new religion), lawn work, and backyard barbecues. When worship, which is neither feminine or masculine, becomes a vehicle to cater to a specific group (group-ism) then it is a turn off - a political thing. The beautiful thing about Eastern Christianity is that it invites all, but caters to none. a lot of churches are packed only with women (and children - for now). Where are the men? many 'men' don't want to be associated with effeminity, which is not to be confused with feminine women. Some Christian communities are just all too queer. One community celebrates homosexuality. Some reason that the rise of feminism is directly correlated with the rise of the homosexual culture in church ministry. both groups need respect and not to be challenged. I know several homosexual male ministers who only work with women; they are too challenged by the men in their community. The feminist women ridicule motherhood, but mostly those who are full-time mothers. The new styles of worship cater to these two groups of men and women. Everyone else has to live with it or leave. Many Protestant churches are emptying fast because these communities lost their soul. Feminism and homosexuality are closely tied. Get rid of both and you will see worship oriented to God, not man. Get rid of both and yo uwill see 'men' return to church and participate because real men will be invited and encouraged to participate and not smeared. The Church (and worship) has become a free field for unbridled feminism and a culture of homosexuality. many know of it. that is why Christianity is dying a quicker death in some communities.

I didn't mean to get rid of feminists or homosexuals. Get rid of feminism and homosexuality for they are sins. The theology of the body, which your late Pope taught (and we don't hear about anymore), is a challenge to these two errors. They both say no to being a real 'woman' or a real 'man'. Its about power, control, living the life of sin without constraint. both are lies.

Its not about whether men get to wear lace or silk. People have come to like effeminate worship; it caters to their lazy and weak souls. SO they run to it leaving their own churches behind. Everyone seems to be upset with the type of worship these days. 'Men' leave because worship is about edifying as watching Barney. Feminists grow frustrated because their church leaders haven't given them Enough powers and control. children leave either because the are attracted to lazy worship or because they think it is all a farce. They turn to music which is more inspiring.

Eddie

Rusyn31 -

If you can point to a growing and vibrant young faith community that demonstrates the slavophilia you call for here in the US (one not made up of first gen immigrants!) I would appreciate it.

When you say:

"Many people are also thinking on leaving for the same reasons as I have just stated...

"Many OCA churches in the Pittsburgh area have picked up former Byzantine Catholics because they embrace these things, and not frown upon them...

"You are right that the populace won't switch or convert because of the language of the Liturgy. That being said, there have been previous conversions en masse because of church politics (OCA, ACROD, etc.) which are starting to rear their ugliness again today."

Let's be plain about this - if the BCA won't give you the slavophilic vision you hope for - one that is dead in the water in most places outside the "Pierogie Belt" are you prepared to go elsewhere? Would you be Catholic or Orthodox for the sake of a national of ethnic vision above and beyond Orthodoxy or Catholocism?

Common as it may be to have third generation Slavs speaking an ethnic language in the home and fully expecting to meet a nice boy or girl to marry who does the same in Picksbugh, that ain't how its rollin' in Peoria.

"The Church (and worship) has become a free field for unbridled feminism and a culture of homosexuality. many know of it. that is why Christianity is dying a quicker death in some communities."

Eddie,

If by "effeminate worship" you mean a pro-homosexual feminism, then that is a bane to the Church and an utter disgrace.

Your statement, however, is particular to the experience of some American Catholics, not all. If you're in Houston, come to the parish I love. Mass there is far from what you describe.

Terry

I did have an odd experience at a mass when I was visiting New York. It distracted me during mass, but since I'm new to Catholicism I wasn't sure how much of an affront was being committed.

When I walked in the church a little early there were about ten people in the church praying. Then more people came in and started chatting. That's when I began to notice a difference from where I usually attend mass. Then, when I was noticing all this a group of ladies entered and, for a moment, I thought I was again at a Baptist church. They started socializing like the world was going to end if they were quiet. My wife stared the loudest one down and put a finger to her lips, but the lady ignored the chastisement. I was relieved that these ladies stopped chattering when mass started.

It was as I expected until the readings. The lay reader, before he read from his passages, gave a summary and framed the reading into what I thought was a mini-homily if you take what he said before the two readings and then, summarizing it all, before he announced the parish news at the end of the mass.

I liked the visiting priest's homily, but was very distracted by the interpretations and framing that man (he's not a deacon even) had inserted into the mass. I thought him out of place. But I considered that he may not know better, though I may have been wrong to have taken offense. (There were several ladies handing out the Eucharist, into the hand if you wanted too.)

If I lived in a rural community and only had that parish to attend, or one more like the one you described, I don't know what I would do. It would be much harder to spiritually mature there than with a holy priest and a strong community of believers; maybe I would try and seek help from the Knights of Columbus with manly deeds of faith.

Dear Mr. or Ms. "Simple Sinner",

You said, "If you can point to a growing and vibrant young faith community that demonstrates the slavophilia you call for here in the US (one not made up of first gen immigrants!) I would appreciate it."

-- Being from Peoria, haven't you notice the vibrant Croatian and Serbian communities that are taking over there in "Illinoise" (since you want to play the dialect game....ya knou...hey, are you a "fibz")?

The Byzantine Catholic Church in America WAS BUILT ON SLAVIC TRADITIONS!!! Call it slavophilia if you want, but that is what we are!!! Where are we from? When did the Union of Uzhorod form? Where did Bishop Takach come from? Why have we forgotten our roots?

And yes, I AM prepared to go elsewhere...my church was brought up on Rusyn-Slavic traditions! I would be a Catholic or Orthodox for the sake of ethnic vision as some of my relatives did in the 1930's when they switched to the ACROD (if you know what that is, being from Peeoria).

And, by the way, it is PIROHY BELT, not Pierogie, that is Polish! Mr's T's. makes Pierogies, we Rusyn and Slovak churches make Pirohy!

I know some other things that are rollin' in Peeoria, and they ain't good...Yo hablo espanol?

Just curious, why do you think the traditions brought to us by our "slavophilic" ancestors are, "dead in the water"?

I agree with you that modern American culture is illiterate for all practical purposes, not so much in a literal sense, but culturally. We can bemoan the problems with declining Byzantine church attendance, and at the same time find the roots of those problems are the same roots that see a decline in the appreciation of good literature, great music, and fine art.

But Dr. Eric makes the statement "As I've written before, the "MTV Generation" is also "Generation ADD" and Protestant." I don't think Protestantism has much to do with it. Its secularism. Have a deep discussion about matters connected with theology, with matters of the substance of what people believe in, and you will find that by and large, regardless of what church setting you are in, people do NOT have a world view grounded in Christianity, whether Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant. Most Catholics I know, Byzantine or otherwise, attend liturgy, participate in the service, but don't have a clue when it comes to the basics of what the church believes. That, I believe, is why it is easy for these folks to hop from church to church and denomination to denomination. It's all relative to them.

I read a study recently (I'd have to pull it out to cite the source) regarding the growth of conservative evangelical Protestant "mega churches," such as the Willow Creek phenomenon in the Chicago area. This study showed that these "big production" mega churches were growing at a phenomenal rate, but that this was deceptive, because these churches compete for the same group of people (about 35% of the general population) who move from church to church. Hardly successful evangelization.

Culture is destroying our churches, but not "east vs west" or "slavic vs mainstream america" or whatever. Far, far too many are not connecting with the essence of what being a Christian really is -- a dynamic relationship with the living God. I'm not sure that is an institutional issue. It is symptomatic of where we are as a nation, and is a battle that is not "against flesh and blood" as the scripture says. If we don't approach this as a spiritual war, we cannot hope to be victorious.

Mister.

S�, yo hablo espa�ol. And that is not a bad thing.

NO, the church was not built first and foremost on our Slavic Heritage. It was built on our Baptismal heritage.

Pierogies are our concession to the Polish community in my HUNGARIAN Greek Catholic Church. That's how we called em, that's what they are where I am from.

(And yea, I know what ACROD is - see my posts about it. Don't be so haughty and condescending.)

And yes, where my vibrant parish is, given that it is made up of converts, reverts who were raised Latin and had not bothered with church for decades before joining us, Romainians, Ukrainians, ethnic American midwesterners, two Greek families, and more than a few Latino families that speak what's rollin in Peoria and "ain't good" in your slavaphile estimation, it's dead in the water.

Good luck with your efforts to create a little slice of Sub-Carpathian-Alleghania. If you must leave the Catholic Church to find a Rusyn Church for Rusyns, so be it. I hope you find what you are looking for and curl your toes with joy to be amongst "nash" when you get there and speak "our language" among "our people".

Rusyn31,



I'm sorry to hear how the new RDL has affected the Congregational singing at Holy Ghost, just in time for the Centennial celebration! I think if places like St. Elias Church in Brampton can be "ultra" Vostochnik and Slavic, that surely the same can be done here in the US. If you were advocating the use of a user-friendly-er Hispanic language and culture, you would have no obstacles. Yet many today have a problem if "Slavic" decendants of the Ruthenian Metropolia try to perpetuate their "Slavicness". That would not be politically correct. God forbid some parishes might want to use some Church Slavonic in the liturgy. It is sad that many in the Ruthenian Metropolia are "Slavophobic"!

U-C

Without saying things I'd like to say fearing banishment like others, one question I have:

Why all the Slavophobia?

Rusyn31,

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I'm not suggesting Slaviphobia, especially as my Great-Grandfather was Serbian. I'm trying to explain why the WASPs who make up America will not attend a Liturgy in what is essentially a dead language. Just like all those who think the TLM will revitalize the Church don't realize that Americans don't care for Latin either. (It's not even taught in the schools anymore.)

Remember that the great Sts. Cyril and Methodius gave the people a Liturgy in their own language, their own vernacular over and against the wishes of the Pope who wanted them to use Latin, a language they didn't understand.

You are more than entitled to your opinion, but I'm only trying to help as an outsider to show you why there aren't tens of millions of people attending a Divine Liturgy every Sunday in America. My wife didn't like to attend the UGCC that I went to from time to time.

"Is it going to be in English this time?" she would ask.

If my wife, who lived in Vienna, Guatemala, and Cote Ivoire and speaks German, Spanish, and French didn't want to attend a Liturgy that wasn't in English what makes you think that the average American who can't get "your/you're" correct is going to want to attend a Liturgy in Slavonic?

I would love to see a Catholic Divine Liturgy offered in every American city of over 50,000 people. I live in the 12th largest city in America and there is only 1 Catholic Divine Liturgy and it's entirely in English. The church is full every time that I've been there and the parish is vibrant.

Eastern Catholicism (and Orthodoxy) have so much to offer this Culture of Death. We should use every moral means necessary to get the word out, but Slavonic, Ukrainian, Arabic, Greek, Russian, etc. will not get Americans in the Church.

Speak the language of the people, they'll come and they'll listen.

It's not Slavophobia, but the aversion to what is seen as foreign. That's quite a human response.

Quite simply, some of us are not Slavs. My ancestors were Austrian - no, they were not pretend Ukrainians because they lived in the Austrian Empire - who came to America for a new life in a new culture. I don't know more than a word or two of Church Slavonic. If we are getting so hung up on having Divine Liturgy in original languages, then we ought to do it in Greek. That was the language of Constantinople when it developed. I do think there is a need, even a desire, for eastern spirituality in the United States. But as good St. Cyril realized, it needs to be presented in the vernacular.

That may be fine for your parish, but don't deny the parishes that want to keep some use of Church Slavonic in the liturgy and some semblance of Slavic culture. For years parishes have been raising money selling "Slavic" foods at parish festivals. Oh, but that's OK because it brings in money. But when parishioners ask for some use of Church Slavonic in the liturgy it is denied. Yes, lets become a homogenized, politically-correct, all-inclusive, feminist "American Byzantine Church". RRRiiiggghhhttt!

U-C