www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Latin Orders of the Byzantine Rite

Dear, in Christ, Adam,

You ask a very good questions. Apart from Fr. Cyril's book, not many suggestions have been made, pointing toward scholarly studies?

Perhaps one is needed? Perhaps a good discussion can be started here?

I have heard so many thoughts on this subject, and it all makes me a little dizzy, so I think the questions would benefit from a general review?

As a Carmelite, and as a Byzantine, I do have a personal interest in the questions! I have heard some people tell me that if I am a Carmelite, I shouldn't be a Byzantine. Or others say that if I am Byzantine, I shouldn't have joined the Carmelites, seeing the two vocations as mutually exclusive. I have to say, that I don't think they are. But, I have to admit, that sometimes the wedding of Carmel and Byzantium has its unique challenges.

I agree with Allyson, a universal renewal of monastic life is needed. Perhaps, there is enough then to being a good conversation here?

the unworthy,
Elias

It certainly does. I am just not of the feeling that we must have one or ther other - I think that we can have both. I think that there is room for Byzantine Franciscans and monastic communities like Holy Resurrection & Holy Transfiguration. Some people feel that it is a sign of Latinization to have any Byzantine Christians serving the Church under western rules such as Carmelite or Franciscan or Dominican etc.

I can't argue that such monastic rules aren't western, but I can't always say I agree that there must be a strict divorce between the spiritualities. Let the latins form Basilian sketes, let the Byzantines form Franciscan priories...

Fr. Elias,

Perhaps you could share with us some of the difficulties and benifits you have experienced in living Byzantine Carmelite life.

Simple

I am vaguely recalling reading about a monastery of Byzantine Carmelite nuns, somewhere in America --- the midwest perhaps?

In Sugarloaf, PA.

I recently wrote about them on my blog.

http://blog.ancient-future.net/2007/07/byzantine-carmelite-sisters.html

You can check out their website...

http://www.byzantinediscalcedcarmelites.com

Make sure you listen to the audio clip they have of Bp. BASIL celebrating the liturgy...

http://www.byzantinediscalcedcarmelites.com/page17.html

Dear Friends,

I'm sure Fr. Archimandrite Sergius Keleher could tell us stories (if he so chooses) about how life has been like as an Irishman in the UGCC!

Alex

Dear Friends,

Certainly, there are problems with Western orders in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

But our Basilian Order, Latinized as it is, has probably given the most cause for grief in the UGCC's history.

Depending on the particular charism of an order, such an amalgamation could prove useful in the ECC's life.

I'm most familiar with the Byzantine Redemptorists and a relative of mine was a Redemptorist Archbishop. They were and are popular in Ukraine and in Canada, even though they are no longer in Eastern Canada. Met. Andrew Sheptytsky had no problem with them and Bl. Basil Velychkovsky CSsR was in every way an Eastern priest and bishop as were others.

Benedictines and Franciscans and Oblates of Mary Immaculate - they came about as a result of ecumenism and pastoral need.

St Josaphat actually opposed the bringing in of the Carmelites into the Kyivan Catholic Metropolia. But the idea should not have posed a problem since Carmelite spirituality is originally Eastern and the Latin Carmelites continue to bear Eastern imprints.

Devotion to the Holy Protection of the Mother of God of Mt Carmel and the eremitical tradition - all Eastern.

It was BECAUSE the Carmelites were seen by the RC orders of the day as rightfully belonging to the Eastern Church that the conflict developed during which St Simon of the Stock in Aylesford prayed to the Mother of God and experienced his vision.

Certainly, the adaptation of the Carmelite hermits to Western religious standards is a fact. But there is no reason why the Carmelite Charism could not be adapted to the Eastern Church (especially in accordance with the hesychastic rule of St Paissy Velichkovsky?).

The Benedictine tradition is similar to this, especially since St Benedict adapted Eastern monastic principles to the West and continued to recommend reading St Basil and St John Cassian etc.

Alex

Archm. Fr. Constantine-Paul Belisaurius of Alexandria, Egypt DID find a conflict being a Jesuit for some reason, apparently Jesuits do not have a life centered around the liturgy, this is the life he now has, a desert father of a sort, to the best of his ability.

So I am suspsicious very much of Eastern people being part of Western orders. I should say however I'm also suspicious of Western people being in Western orders...eheheheh.

Ideally westerners and easterners should be able to be in the same orders, yes.

Life on earth is rarely ideal.

Of all the orders it makes most sense to me for the Benedictines to be one that could contain Easterners within it. I say this because it is the oldest "order". It exists within the Western Orthodox Church and it existed on Mount Athos as well for at least a few decades of the the 10th or 11th century. (Amalfion?)

I do think it is possible for the western orders to be used by the East with some modifications to them, perhaps when the West becomes closer theologically to the east and closer to it's roots it will make more sense. However at this time I think it is worth realizing how we got to have Byzantine Carmelites and Franciscans. Were the intentions in Easterners joining them healthy intentions? If they were not healthy they should not be in them, if they are healthy they may be able to exist in them.

The best idea I think is to "think outside the box" really what the problem of the west is since barbarian times is that everyone must be in an order you see. We need to have in the West as well as in the Eastern Catholics just "monks" like what St. Augustine was. St. Augustine didnt have a rule like what the Augustinians of today use...he was just a monk...I dont know how to describe it..back to the roots. Here is an example of the problems created in Barbarian west with the Irish for example I quote:


How sad.

It bears noting for clarification, however, that much of the grief of the Basilian's involvment was their overall Latinizing tendancies above and beyond their Latin style of service to the UGCC.

Simply being organized in a Latin fashion of the monastic cleric who is not stictly attached to a studite form of monasticism but rather goes out and serves in the world as directed is a Latinization. To have stopped right there and perservered in there adherence to their Greco-Slavonic heritage in all other ways would have been a different story.

I guess it wasn't so much they were organized in a Latin fashion, as it was what they proceeded to impliment.

After reading up on how they currently understand themselves, it is clear they are not sure of their monastic status and sometimes clearly deny it - how can they continue to reference the Rules of St Basil then?

They were reformed as an "Order" by the Jesuits and their current reform of their Order, that has yet to be made official, promises to "improve them worse."

Alex

CIX


Perhaps I've misunderstood you, but are you stating that going out to serve the world should never be done by monastics? I, personally, don't see a problem with this so long as the monastics in question are truly faithful to their Eastern identity and not simply trying to ape the Latins, as indeed the Basilians are known to do.

In fact you did misunderstand me.

My point about the Basilians being a source of grief wwasn't because they were Latin-style in organizing, it was because they were Latinizing in all else!

Frankly I would like nothing better than to see both styles of religious life exist in the Eastern Catholic world. There is room for the monastic, there is room for the religous order.

I live in Poland and here there are groups of Latin priests and monks that celebrate the Divine Liturgy according the Byzantine Rite.

In Poland there are 2 dioceses of Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church and among the priests of this church there are some priests that are bi-ritualists (celebrate Latin and Byzantine rite) In the UGCC the Divine Liturgy is celebrated according to Byzantine-Ukrainian rite.

Nevertheless, there is one parish in Poland with byzantine rite that is not a part of UGCC, but is in full communion with the Catholic Church. The parish is located in Kostomłoty - a small village near the east border of Poland. The parish priest, Father Archimadrite Roman Piętka MIC, belongs to the Congregation of Marian Fathers ( http://www.padrimariani.org/ ). In the parish the Divine Liturgy is celebrated according to Byzantine-Slavonic rite, mainly in Church Slavonic and in Polish. The website of the parish is interesting; some information is available also in English: http://www.kostomloty-parafia-unicka.siedlce.opoka.org.pl/

In Poland there are also priests-Jesuits that are bi-ritualists. Father Mark Blaza is well-known here, and he has a personal website (in Polish and in Ukrainian).

My colleague, who is a Jesuit monk, also wants to be a bi-ritualist after being ordained Deacon.

The privilege of celebrating more than one rite can be given usually by the Pope, but the General Superior of Jesuits also can do that.

Sorry for my poor English.

Fr. Mark Blaza's website: http://213.77.44.29/mblaza/

As far as I know, Father Roman has resigned and MIC don't have anyone to put there instead of him?

Nie wiem dokladnie, ale mi sie zdaje, ze ojciec Roman nie tak dawno zrezygnowal z wieloletniego stanowiska proboszcza parafii Sw. Nikity. Czy MIC (oo. mariane) maja kogos zeby go zastepic? Przeprarzem za moj Polski.