www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Women's Ordination

What is the theological/revelatory basis of the exclusion of women from the priesthood? Does the East employ arguments from natural law against women's ordination (WO) as the West does?

The exclusion of women from the priesthood is founded solely upon divine revelation.

What natural law arguments does the West make to exclude women from ordination to the priesthood?

Which specific parts of the apostolic deposit form the basis of their exclusion? Christ's selection of the apostles? The epistles of Paul? The traditional practice of the Church? From my perspective, it appears that they could easily explain these as the Christianization of existing social structures.



Here's some Scotus:

"[Holy] Orders, as was said above, represents some degree of eminence over other people in the Church, and for an excellent action which in some way ought to be signified by an eminent condition and position in nature. Woman however possesses a [state of] natural subjection with respect to man. Therefore she ought to have no degree of eminence over any man, because as much by nature as by condition and nobility women are more ignoble than any man; whence after the fall, the Lord subjected her to the rule and power of the man. But if she were able to receive some [Holy] Order in the Church, she would be able to preside over and to have authority, which is contrary to her condition. Therefore the Bishop in conferring Orders on a woman, not only does wrong, because it is against Christ�s precept, but rather does nothing, nor does she receive anything, because she herself is not material capable of receiving this sacrament. Because Christ instituted that this sacrament be conferred only upon an individual of the human species and the masculine sex. It is clear from the authority of the Apostle,in Timoth.2."

This article [anglicanscotist.blogspot.com] summarizes some of the basic arguments.

Well, Scotus uses the word "natural" in the text, but his teaching does not appear to be reducible to the concept of "natural law." The subjection of a woman to her husband is a bibilcal truth, but this subjection should not be seen as a power over her, i.e., as if she is his slave. He seems to be promoting an argument based on the teaching of the Genesis creation narratives, Ephesians 5 and 1st Corinthians.

That said, I would tend to say that women are excluded from the priesthood (i.e., the episcopal office and the presbyteral office) because Christ chose only men as Apostles.

God bless,
Todd

In the quotations provided in the article, St. Thomas -- as usual -- tends to say too much.



God bless,
Todd

"From my perspective, it appears that they could easily explain these as the Christianization of existing social structures."

Priestesses were common in the pagan world of the time. Judaism stands out with respect to having an all-male priesthood maintained for over a 1000 years.

I think it is more likely that the push for women priests is peculiar to the secularized world of the late 20th century and represents a profound confusion about the distinct roles of men and women in the natural family and by extension the church family. So attempting to ordain women (which is impossible) represents an importation of "existing [disordered] social structures" into the sacramental life of the church.

Most definitely. The noteworthy intellectual and spiritual capacities of the female sex I take quite seriously and accept as axiomatic, and for that reason I look at with skepticism claims about women that they took for granted. The trick is distinguishing those differences rooted primarily in culture from those rooted in nature; although they, of course, do not ever exist in isolation in the real world.

CRW,

Thanks for the reply. My questions are an attempt to organize my thoughts and separate the wheat from the chaff.


Why? Was the low view of women espoused by Aquinas and Scotus an import from Judaic and/or Greco-Roman culture? Women's legal rights and socio-economic opportunities within the world were considerably limited during that time compared to now. Women and children were the property of the male head of the household. Radical feminism and unchecked patriarchalism appear to be two sides of the same coin from my perspective. The first denies the real differences between the sexes and the latter is a form of sexism which dehumanizes the female sex.

Diacons are part of the glergy. Early church knew female diacons/diaconess, who were helping the priests and bishops in the liturgy.
I have understood, that the orthodox church in Greece is planing to restore the female diacons...
Btw: one older roman catholic priest once said me in England in the 80�s: "There is no theological arguments again the female priests - only the tradition..." (The Finnish lutheran church has just then accepted the women priests.)

if the Greeks are planning to restore females to the Diaconate, perhaps they have Scriptural and Tradition sources to justify such a move?
Much Love,
Jonn

A priest is a Father. A woman cannot be a Father. Similarly, a Mother is a woman and a man cannot be a Mother.

There have been efforts towards the restoration of Deaconesses in the Church of Greece for several decades. However, support for such a move has diminished, especially with the ordination of "priestesses" among Anglicans, Lutherans, and others.

Fr. Serge

Father,

What is the status of this? A few years ago the net was flooded with stories (actually the same single report written and rewritten several times - basically a one source wonder) that the Greek Church had taken moves and voted to restore it... But to date, I have heard no further details about the when/where/who's, etc.

Any info?

The only information I have is that the ordination of deaconesses is definitely on the back burner with the gas off. Don't look for it to happen anytime soon in Greece. My impression is that the opposition is strengthened by the apprehension that ordaining deaconesses would widely be received as the first step to ordaining priestesses. More to the point, there is a widely held - inaccurate - impression that deaconesses in the olden days had the same liturgical functions that deacons have.

Fr. Serge

Diacoate is different from priesthood. There is a wonderful book edited by Bisop Kallistos Ware (?)on this very subject. When I find the book I'll list the title. THere are arguments for and against women ordination. Those against argue that the innate differences between women and men's natures preclude women from the priesthood, and that it goes much deeper than superficial masculine and feminine characteristics (which is what those in favor generally argue). Unfortunately, I don't remember details, but the above mentioned book was from an Orthodox perspective. Pope John Paul II makes the best argument against women's ordination through his Theology of the Body documents. They explain the essential differences between men and women that support his conclusion.