www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Spanish and Slavonic in Byzantine Worship in America

Just finished the latest issue of HORIZONS, and I just had to come here and vent.

An all Spanish Liturgy was recently held at the shrine in Burton Ohio. A text of the entire liturgy in Spanish was printed for this occasion. Now before anybody says "It's just a few flyers for one liturgy", can anybody explain why NO SLAVONIC was printed in the new books for the entire Pittsburgh metropolia?

I wonder if Spanish RC parishes are having occasional Slavonic masses? Will an updated text of the new Byzantine books have Spanish in them in the near future?

Just like sands in the hourglass, so go the days of the BCC...

Brings back memories . . . in the mid-sixties at the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Saint Nicholas Cathedral, in Chicago, the Calendar was suddenly and abruptly changed, which provoked a good deal of protest - some of the leading protesters were excommunicated for their trouble.

On the same page of the issue of the Chicago Catholic newspaper which announced the excommunication of those Ukrainians who wanted to maintain the traditional Church Calendar there was also an announcement that the Chinese Catholic (Latin Rite) parish in Chicago had been authorized to transfer the New Year's Day service from 1 January to the Chinese New Year. Go figure.

The upshot of the situation at the Ukrainian Cathedral was the founding of Ss. Volodymyr and Ol'ha Church a block away - it's one of the strongest Ukrainian Greek-Catholic parishes anywhere in the world. God really does bring forth good from evil.

Incidentally, I would fully support efforts to provide our services in Spanish - but obviously not in the context of contempt for our present clergy and faithul!

Fr. Serge

It kind of reminds me of what the Venerable Bede said about the English - they will follow everything novel and hold fast to nothing. Apparently, that's not restriced to the English but is quite common elsewhere. The Latin Traditionalists complained for years of local dioceses promoting Mass in every language except Latin. I have no great affection for Slavonic and in fact only know a few words of it. However, it does seem to have fallen out of favor for some reason.

Etnick,

That is why I'm thankful for a certain small Ruthenian parish that uses Church Slavonic on Sundays. Daj Bozhe!

Ungcsertezs

Likely the Melkite Spanish Translation was used. So I am not sure about the correlation here that is upsetting you. Special effort wasn't made to translate for this singular occasion.

Are you annoyed that the DL was taken in Spanish?

Very annoyed! The ancient Slavonic tongue of our forefathers is being ignored. People seem to have a hate for it, while a language such as Spanish is seemingly embraced as a language for normal use in the church.

I'm not saying that Spanish shouldn't be used, but if a priest can learn and say the entire liturgy in Spanish, he CERTAINLY can learn and say it in Slavonic.

My only comment to that is that Spanish is very probably the everyday language spoken by these people .

Is Slavonic ?

My point is that Slavonic has been used in the Eastern church for many centuries in other parts of the world, as well as for many years in the USA. Spanish hasn't, and yet Slavonic is being tossed aside. If I want to hear Spanish I'll go to a Spanish speaking RC church.

It would be nice to see as big an interest in Slavonic again, since it's our churches mother tongue.

And we are supposed to be welcoming to people ??

I'm not Ukrainian - I speak but a few words , but most of my Parish are Ukranian speaking - so naturally I cope during Liturgy in Ukrainian - just.

Why shouldn't the Liturgy be in the language that people are most comfortable using ??

OH - and unless you know a language very very well the readings at DL should be in the language used by the majority of those present - no matter how well I'll ever be able to use Ukrainian I will miss the nuances in the language used for readings and the homilies.

A few Greek monks said the same thing about those wacky priest brothers who wanted to introduce some barbarian language from Bulgaria for use in the Divine Liturgy so those pagan slavs could understand it - they even went to the Pope of Rome (of all people!) to get persmission to do so, clearly an affront to the Archbisop of Constantinople and the Imperial See!

On a serious note I can understand your frustration, it can't be that hard to print slavonic on one page and english on the other like in latin mass missals.

Who is to say the preist learned Spanish for this occasion or that he cannot offer it in Slavonic? Do you know that to be the case?

A decade ago there were 5 seminarians at BCS who spoke Spanish because they had learned it in high school, college, been to Spain or Mexico, or had family where it was spoken.

This one opportunity was taken to offer the DL in Spanish and you are disgusted?

You don't get the holy mysteries yoked to the national sentiment you demand and no one should have it - even for a one time offering at this place?

This ancient language of old Bulgarian people?
My recent experience of serving the Divine Liturgy in Slavonic here, in Minneapolis, shows that no one really understands it and able to follow it without stumbling all the time. Even our beautiful choir, who usually is very efficient, was confusing "Господи Помілуй" and "Подай, Господи" despite at least 2 months of rehearsals.
On the other hand, Spanish is widely spoken in the cities. I strongly believe that it is a "must know" language if we want to evangelise cities in this country and revive our Church. Otherwise, let us form "pirohi groups" and "holubki" associations and forget about what Christ told us in Mk 16:15.

P.S. Fr Levkulic's book wasn't helpful - we were taking everything as in Grottoferrata's Slavonic Liturgicon.

P.P.S To avoid further questions - I take pride in knowing Old Slavonic and totally ashamed of my inability to communicate to my Spanish-speaking Peruvian neighbours.

OK, Let's give up pirohi and holubki, Slavonic, and the whole nine yards, sell rice and beans instead, and hope our churches fill up with people in the "NEIGHBORHOOD".

Get real! Our churches are ethnic! We left the inner cities and went to the suburbs to maintain our traditions.

[rant] Yes - and how many children - I mean the four and five year olds can speak any Slavonic ? or read it when they grow older ?

Look I keep saying this - I support the Ukrainians who wish to keep using the language in the Liturgy BUT you can and will get to a situation where the children move away and you are left with the adults .

Here I go again - my Parish - but this is valid . We are a dying parish - our Ukes came over in the war years - they learned to speak English - they had to to survive. They married into Scottish families [ or even Polish ] . They had children and taught them the Ukrainian language - but those children got married and moved away. Those children in their turn married and had children and no longer speak Ukrainian and only attend DL [ on the whole ] when they visit their parents and grandparents.

We will not get many new members - how can we - we use a language that the local people do not. We have very few children in the parish - and unless there is a Ukrainian School run by the Ukrainian Club the children will not learn the language - except by listening to and learning from their parents /grandparents - and frankly language gets mangled this way.

Sooooo what is the answer ? I dunno

How do you serve the local people if you do not use their language ? [/rant]

Let's get down to brass tacks here. We left those places to get away from those people and should do our best to make sure our parishes our enclaves of "our people's" way of life?