www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Spanish and Slavonic in Byzantine Worship in America

It appears, that one of the threads where this question was discussed mysteriously evaporated. Let us discuss here what would be more important for the future of the Ruthenian Church in America - to revive Slavonic or to introduce some Spanish?

Ihar,

The thread in question has been moved for review by the administrators due to the nasty tone by certain posters and the baiting taking place. Possible disciplinary action may be forth coming. If such a tone carries into this thread, quick action will be taken against the offending posters and this thread will be short-lived also.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

As they say in Moscow - Democracy is in Hell, Kingdom is in Heaven.

It seems like a lot of "non-ethnic" Byzantines (or converts, whatever you prefer) tend to think that "Byzantine" people used to speak Slavonic back in "Old Country". It is true, only if by the "Old Country" we mean Bulgaria of the early Middle Ages. Nobody speaks Slavonic anywhere in the world anymore. Reason for its existence in the places like Russia or, partially, Ukraine is that for the most of the Eastern and Southern Slavic nations this language is still relatively comprehensible. However, it is not the case in the USA. I'm talking out of my Ohio and Minneapolis experience. I am not aware of any Appalachian Byzantine villages where people still speak (sic!) Slavonic
What is, however, true about the USA, that this nation consists of many millions of people who speak Spanish and who might be interested in the Byzantine tradition if only it was available in their language. If we, Byzantine Catholics , care about our Church and want to be obedient to Christ's words in Mk 16, 15 - �Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation" - we have to think seriously about Spanish language in our Church.

You can still go to many Eastern Christian Churches (not only Byzantine, but OCA, UGCC, etc.)where people STILL DO speak Slovak, Rusyn, Ukrainian, Croatian, even Hungarian, etc. You can even go to some of these churches where they teach these languages, especially in Pennsylvania, Ohio, and Minnesota.

These Slavic languages are a lot more comprehensible than a being forced to speak a language of a people that are here in our country for the most part illegally (over 25+ MILLION)!! That's not right, is it?

On other threads when we've discussed topics that include "foreign Slavic" languages and "nationalistic and ethnic" ideals, many on this board stated that I would (or should) have to go back to the homeland to hear that "foreign Slavic" language because we now live in America and speak English.

Why have the tables turned all of a sudden? Why should we cater to those that speak Spanish, come to our country and expect that we speak their language? If I went to France and expected a Parisian to speak English, he would call me names in French and then spit on me. Go try that in Germany, or somewhere in the Middle East and tell me what would happen...

What is the the reason we had to give up our beautiful Slavic language and traditions when our grandparents and great-grandparents stayed in this country? They had to speak English or they did not get a job and were ridiculed, beat-up or even killed (just look at the unskilled immigrant worker strikes of the early 1900's, in particular, McKees Rocks and Homestead strikes where most killed were Slavs). After WWI, WWII, and especially during the Cold War, everyone was afraid of the "Red-Scare" especially during the McCarthyism era.

The sad fact is that today it seems as if the traverse is true. Eventually it looks as if our American culture will be destroyed as well.

If the Spanish, their supporters, converts, or whomever wants their own Byzantine Catholic Church, then petition Rome for a bishop and call it the Spanish Eastern Catholic Church.

I'm curious, do they only speak Portuguese at the Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of S�o Jo�o Batista em Curitiba, or do they also use Ukrainian even though most people are second generation Ukrainians and the languages are totally unrelated?

BTW, nobody speaks Latin anymore, but Roman Catholic Churches are returning to it because they want to keep traditions. Rome still prints and announces decrees in Latin don't they? So why the problems with Slavonic?

Seems to me Rusyn - you are missing the point

Think back to years before your arrival on this planet - two certain Saints developed a langauge so that people could listen to - and participate in the Divine Liturgy in THEIR own language.

Now strange as it seems - I can cope with DL in Ukarinian , English and French. Recently I was also participating in it in English Franch and Greek in the same Liturgy.

If you do not allow the use of languages other than the original Slavic / Greek ones then you will not draw new people in.


I see - if you go to France to live and work AND worship you would be OK with using French ? You are fluent ??

Stop being awkward about this - people have to learn a language at some point if they are living in a country with a different language.

The language used in the USA is American English - anything else is imported - like the Spanish to which you are objecting.

I've said it before - and I'll no doubt say it again - you can learn a language for liturgical use BUT to gain from the Readings and Homily you have to hear them in your own first language

Dearest Rusyn 31
Firstly, I am talking about BCC, not UGCC or ROCOR or any other jurisdiction which emphasises its ethnic origin.
Secondly, how many people speak Slavonic - yes, I'm talking about Slavonic - in their families? Nil. How many Carpatho-Ukrainian origin Byzantine Catholics in the US of A use Rusyn dialect in their everyday life? You tell me. And do you sincerely hope to hear Slavonic spoken in Uzhorod?
Thirdly - what difference does the legal status of the Latino-American people in the USA make for the Church? Aren't they children of God? How dare you refuse them Gospel?
And last point (for now) - yes, they do speak Portuguese in UGCC places in Brasil. To the extend that the Basilian priests brought to the Ukrainian Exarchate in UK by Bp Paul initially found it difficult to speak Ukrainian there.

P.S. And who would force you to speak Spanish? I don't want to eliminate English from the liturgy - it would be silly. I'm talking about a possibility for people of other linguistic backgrounds to have an access to the riches of the Byzantine tradition.

God bless,

Fr. I.

Quotations from previous posts of Rusyn:

1...our grandparents and great-grandparents stayed in this country...They had to speak English or they did not get a job and were ridiculed, beat-up or even killed (just look at the unskilled immigrant worker strikes of the early 1900's, in particular, McKees Rocks and Homestead strikes where most killed were Slavs). After WWI, WWII, and especially during the Cold War, everyone was afraid of the "Red-Scare" especially during the McCarthyism era.

2. These Slavic languages are a lot more comprehensible than a being forced to speak a language of a people that are here in our country for the most part illegally (over 25+ MILLION)!! That's not right, is it?...Why should we cater to those that speak Spanish, come to our country and expect that we speak their language? If the Spanish, their supporters, converts, or whomever wants their own Byzantine Catholic Church, then petition Rome for a bishop and call it the Spanish Eastern Catholic Church.

Please, compare. If possible, in a spirit of Christian love. Aren't you doing the same thing that was done to Slavic people many years ago by others, more "American" groups?

This is exactly why I am considering leaving what was at one point exclusively the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church and going to either the ACROD, OCA, ROCOR, UGCC, et al. I want to belong to a church that emphasises, promotes, as well as lives our ethnic Slavic origins.

I disagree that people have to learn a language at some point if they are living in a country with a minority language....How many Spaniards and French speak Basque? How many Serbs and Croatians speak Albanian? How many English folk speak Gaeilge? How many Slovaks and Romanians speak Hungarian, and vice versa. Who else speaks Romany or Yiddish other than themselves, even though they live in several European countries? How many Turks speak Kurdish?

I am not refusing anyone the Gospel. They can experience it in either in the official state language, or start their own sui juris Eparchy, as did the ORIGINAL Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church, and these others: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches

This is my last post on this thread. Obviously, I have my views, and others have their views. I will not be goaded into any fight....and then be punished for it. Sorry.

1. I just don't understand why Spanish liturgies and Slavonic heritage are mutually exclusive? Why this Church cannot have both? Where does this totalitarian mentality come from - one language, one people, one nation, one way of singing, etc. Sounds like Germany 1933.

2. Believe me, you wouldn't find what you're looking for jumping from jurisdictions to jurisdiction.

3. There is no such thing as common Slavic heritage. There are, however, Ukrainian, Polish, Belarusian, Croation, Muscovite, Bulgarian, etc.

Could someone clarify this?

In the case of the Orthodox Church it's clear that there are ethnic Mexicans who are Orthodox and who have their own parishes in the United States (I have not found any in Britain though), but where do these Spanish Byzantine-Catholics come from? Are they Orthodox who became Catholic?

I might say that you should not be "against" one language (in this case Spanish) but for the use of Slavonic, not because of any ethnic reason but because sacred languages in the liturgy, contribute to preserve its ancient character and the mystery. Moreover, Slavonic is not explicitly Russian or Bulgarian, or Serbian, but a language that served the purpose of unifying all these peoples.

I would say that there should be an agreement between all churches so that we can find a middle way between those who call for an entirely Slavonic or Greek liturgy (a small minority) and those who prefer an all-vernacular one.

The last option should be rejected because the vernacular is very divisive, and this is even worse among RC than among Eastern Christians, now people from different nations have to have their own priests to serve them. This didn't happen in the past when the Western Church had liturgical uniformity.

The fixed parts of the liturgy that all people know (the O Monogenis, Trisagion, Heruvikon, etc) should be said in the sacred language (after all we all know what they mean and nobody will be harmed by learning a bit of Greek) while the prokimenon, and other variable parts of the service may be sung in the vernacular of the majority of the faithful.

Oh, dear dear!
Spanish speakers need to be Evangelised as well as other people. Therefore - converts will come not from the need to cater to any group, but from the mission activity of the BCC. It is our responsibilty to do so.

Slavonic was accepted for the reason of being vernacular - not other way around. Unfortunately, due to historical changes and emergence of separate Slavic nations around 13-15 centuries it ceased to be vernacular. There is no Sacred Language in the Eastern Church, never was and never be. Desire to have something like that comes from totally secularised post-modern mentality.

What unity among Slavs you're talking about? We often hate each other as Hell hates Heaven! I know, I'm one of them.

It would help, in order to preserve "Sacredness" of the Divine Liturgy, to have a good vernacular translation. In English, Spanish, contemporary languages of Slavic nations, etc. Good translation would make Liturgy "bohouhodnoy" - "accepted by God".

The original Spanish Liturgy thread has been added to this thread. It required some heavy editing on some posts to get it to this point. I am adding this to the current thread so it may be only one reference thread. The above global warning I made earlier in this thread still applies as it would with any other thread.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator

Fr Anthony, I like your expression - Global Warning - it coincided somehow with the theme of my homily for Great Vespers this Saturday - about God's Creation.