One Slovak Rusyn kid I knew in Pittsburgh asked his great grandma what she had done that day. The answer was (phoneticly) "Ya ridem na caru y buyem shoesi" (Anyone care to take a crack at the translation?)
"I went (god knows where)....and was buying shoes" Doesn't sound Slovak, rather Uki "surzhyk"
You were thinking too hard!
"I road in the car and I bought shoes"
As to it being pigeon Slovak or Rusyn... On that I cannot say exactly. the monikers, nationalities, and languages of Picks'burgh ethnicity did not always add up.
Ask some people what their ethnicity was and you were told "Greek Catholic"
What kind of service did they attend on Sunday? "Slovak Mass"
What religion are you? "Ukrainian"
Middle aged woman: "Do you speak our people's language?" Very confused me: "Which would that be?" Middle aged woman: "Czechoslovakian!" Very confused me: "Ah, no, I took Swiss in high school."
So what grandma was, I cannot say, but I know she had bought some new shoesi.
One Slovak Rusyn kid I knew in Pittsburgh asked his great grandma what she had done that day. The answer was (phoneticly) "Ya ridem na caru y buyem shoesi" (Anyone care to take a crack at the translation?)
"I went (god knows where)....and was buying shoes" Doesn't sound Slovak, rather Uki "surzhyk"
You were thinking too hard!
"I road in the car and I bought shoes"
As to it being pigeon Slovak or Rusyn... On that I cannot say exactly. the monikers, nationalities, and languages of Picks'burgh ethnicity did not always add up.
Ask some people what their ethnicity was and you were told "Greek Catholic"
What kind of service did they attend on Sunday? "Slovak Mass"
What religion are you? "Ukrainian"
Middle aged woman: "Do you speak our people's language?" Very confused me: "Which would that be?" Middle aged woman: "Czechoslovakian!" Very confused me: "Ah, no, I took Swiss in high school."
So what grandma was, I cannot say, but I know she had bought some new shoesi.
This was great! My Babci spoke pigeon English the same way! Talk about memories! I always thought that the Polish word for tomatoes was: To-may-toos-see! And we always said "cara" or "kara" for car/automobile. When I went to Poland as a teen and saw "samochod" I had NO idea what it was!
I would never presume to suggest that my Ruthenian brothers and sisters be denied the Divine Liturgy in Slavonic, just as I would not deny my Melkite brothers and sisters the Divine Liturgy in Arabic. Yet, I can tell you that, being linguistically inept in most all tongues except English, that my spiritual life of these 40 years past would have been most bereft had the Melkites not recognized the wisdom of adapting to service of the Divine Liturgy in the English language.
A very dear man, Archbishop Joseph (Tawil), of blessed memory, spoke, in his Christmas message of 1970, of 2 seemingly polar opposite dangers to Eastern Christians - a ghetto mentality and assimilation
Quote
We have not yet mentioned the principal dangers which threaten our communities and their mission to the Churches: the ghetto mentality and the assimilation process.
In a ghetto life is closed in upon itself, operating only within itself, with its own ethnic and social clich�s. And the Parish lives upon the ethnic character of the community; when that character disappears, the community dies and the parish dies with it.
One day all our ethnic traits - language, folklore, customs - will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, primarily for the service of the immigrant or the ethnically oriented, unless we wish to assure the death of our community. Our Churches are not only for our own people but are also for any of our fellow Americans who are attracted to our traditions which show forth the beauty of the universal Church and the variety of its riches.
Without doubt we must be totally devoted to our American national culture. We must have an American life-style. We must be fully American in all things and at the same time we must preserve this authentic form of Christianity which is ours and which is not the Latin form. We must know that we have something to give, otherwise we have no reason to be. We must develop and maintain a religious tradition we know capable of enriching American life. Otherwise we would be unfaithful to our vocation.
It is often easier to get lost in the crowd than to affirm one's own personality. It takes more courage, character, and inner strength to lead our traditions to bear fruit than it takes to simply give them up. The obsession to be like everyone else pursues us to the innermost depths of our hearts. We recognize that our greatest temptation is always to slip into anonymity rather than to assume our responsibility within the Church. And so, while we opt for ethnic assimilation, we can never agree to spiritual assimilation.
One prime source of spiritual assimilation for Eastern Catholics has been the phenomenon known as 'latinization', the copying by Eastern Catholics of the theology, spiritual practices, and liturgical customs of the Latin Church. Latinization implies either the superiority of the Roman rite -the position denounced by Vatican II - or the desirability of the assimilation process, an opinion with which we cannot agree. Not only is it unnecessary to adopt the customs of the Latin rite to manifest one's Catholicism, it is an offense against the unity of the Church. As we have said above, to do this would be to betray our ecumenical mission and, in a real sense, to betray the Catholic Church.
For this reason many parishes are attempting to return to the practice of Eastern traditions in all their purity. This has often entailed redecoration of the churches and elimination of certain devotions on which many of the people had been brought up. In some places, our priests, attempting to follow the decree of the Council in this matter have been opposed by some of their parishioners. Other priests have been reluctant to move in this direction, as they feared that division and conflict would result. We should all know in this regard that a latinized Eastern Church cannot bear anything but false witness, as it seems to be living proof that Latinism and Catholicism are indeed one and the same thing.
To be open to others, to be able to take our rightful place on the American Church scene, we must start by being fully ourselves. It is only in our distinctiveness that we can make any kind of contribution to the larger society. It is only by being what we are that we retain a reason for existence at all.
I would hate to think that, in anyone's righteous anger about the liberties taken with the recent translation of the Divine Liturgy, they would in turn express the same kind of prejudicial, exclusionary attitude toward those who would worship with us who are of another culture, another nationality, another ethnicity, another linguistic tradition, or another color as was expressed to our forebearers by John Ireland and Patrick Ryan in another time and place.
Would you deny Anhelyna the Ukrainian Church because she is Scots? Me, the Melkite Church because I am of Irish ancestry? Cynthia, the Ruthenian Church because she is an African-American? Edward Yong, the Russian Church because he is Asian? Bernardo, the Melkite Church because he is Mexican?
Why are the Ruthenians serving an Italo-Greek parish in LV - let them get their own presbyters! Likewise, the Melkites serving a Russian parish in LA - let them too get their own!
Keep these foreigners (a relative term, apparently) out of our churches. Forget that these foreigners are our co-workers, our neighbors, our (gasp!) friends; that they are, in many cases, the persons with whom our children will marry and who will father or birth our grandchildren. But, what care we? Our own are leaving our temples and, apparently, we will be content to assure ourselves that the last to leave blows out the candles, closes the Royal Doors, and locks the front - pushing away any who are trying to enter as our Churches fade away to footnotes in ecclesiastical history.
I'd suggest that we all stop and contemplate for just a moment that the Divine Liturgy belongs to us only as a gift to be offered. It seems to me that it is of and belongs, first, foremost, and forever, to God - He overcame Babel, suggesting that His linguistic fluency is not limited to Slavonic, Arabic, Greek, Russian, Albanian, Croat, Georgian, Copt, Ge'ez, Amharic, Armenian, Syriac, Malayalam, Latin, or even English. I bet He can even understand Spanish!
That there are those on this forum who would deny anyone the right to worship the Divine Liturgy in their own language and would have the chutzpah to suggest that, if they wish to do so, they should seek erection of their own sui iuris Church appalls me. I have long touted this forum's members, in venues across the net, for their openness - their willingness to decry those who would close temples to anyone not of their ethnicity. Of those who would make me a liar in saying that, I will pray for you.
Many years,
Neil
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
To Ungcsertezs and his supporters - No one says that the Divine Liturgy in Slavonic does any harm. Question is - does it do any good? How fluent is your Slavonic? Can you. for instance, read and meditate on Slavonic Psatir (Book of Psalms)? Do you read Slavonic written in Cyrillic, or in "latynica" transliteration (in my opinion, ugliest thing possible)?
Just a thought, since I only read the first page of posts...
I am not a speaker of Slavonic, but I have learned to sing it and, consequently, love to do so. I can only do it however, with the transliteration provided, so I to find the lack of Slavonic in the new books a not welcomed change, as did many in my parish, which accounts for our continued use of the old books I guess (I haven't asked though). It is the only way we could continue to use Slavonic in the liturgy.
Coming from the Latin Rite and not knowing Slavonic, it was the use of English in the liturgy that provided the tool for my understanding of the richness of the liturgy, but that is not a reason to use it exclusively. Tradition is important, so using Slavonic is good to do too. I have a deep appreciation of its use in liturgy.
So, why don't you teach others - there will be many priests, including yours faithfully, who are happy to celebrate Sluzhbu Bozhu in Slavonic providing there are people who understand it.
I'm not a Slav at all - but i just spent the past two hours translating some Church-Slavonic liturgical texts into English, so I suppose I can claim to be a Slavophile. It's a fun language, even though it has no native speakers.
Father Serge - you said it yourself - you spent the past 2 h translating from Ch-Sl :-)
Indeed, it is a fun language and I always enjoy it visiting Studites in Lviv or Polatsk, for example. Even passing through Kostomloty. However, my objections were not to the usage of Slavonic in America, but to certain people's reluctance to allow Hispanics their right to have Liturgy in Spanish.
I'm not a Slav at all - but i just spent the past two hours translating some Church-Slavonic liturgical texts into English, so I suppose I can claim to be a Slavophile. It's a fun language, even though it has no native speakers.
Fr. Serge
What?!?! You translated into English! Is outrage!
A slavophile would have spent the past two hours translating English texts into Slavonic!
I love the DL - but I confess that at times I am very conscious that I am reading and praying the prayers in English - and some of the Priest's ones send shivers up and down my spine.
I really can't see why we have to deny folk the chance to hear / experience / appreciate the depth of spirituality because they do not speak one of the traditional languages.
Someone earlier commented that in about 4 generations the language is lost - this is a shame because so much else will be lost BUT unless you do use the language understood by the majority of the poeple born and brought up in that country you will lose them.
I have no problem with Ukes using Ukrainian - BUT they have to ensure that teaching is available - and this can't be just the listen to us and learn type of teaching - these people joining have to get grammar as well as vocabulary. They have to learn to read and understand and they have to be able to get daily oral practice - I'm speaking from experience as someone who find learning languages difficult.
Father Serge - you said it yourself - you spent the past 2 h translating from Ch-Sl :-)
Indeed, it is a fun language and I always enjoy it visiting Studites in Lviv or Polatsk, for example. Even passing through Kostomloty. However, my objections were not to the usage of Slavonic in America, but to certain people's reluctance to allow Hispanics their right to have Liturgy in Spanish.
Father Ihar,
you seem pretty adamant about Hispanics having their right to have a Liturgy in Spanish. The West side of Cleveland has many Hispanics who could benefit from this right, as a member of the clergy, maybe you can share with the board, what is the Eparchy of Parma's plan to evangelize Hispanics and grant them their right to the Divine Liturgy in Spanish? If you don't know can you find out? The main person who could initiate and provide clergy to foster this right is Bishop John, have you spoken to him about this?
Another good question is what is the evangelization plan for English speaking people for the Eparchy of Parma and all of the Eparchies in the US for that matter? Before the BCA goes evangelizing in Spanish, it would be nice to see some success in English wouldn't it? By the way, is membership up or down since the BCA switched from Slavonic to English? We've had more than ample time (40+ years) to reap the benefits, please share with us the success stories that have come out of the switch to English.
(note: I realize that attendance in the BCA is down in the last 40 years, I wrote the above to show that the BCA desperately needs an evangelization plan. Instead of wasting time, money, and resources revising, these efforts should have been focused on evangelizing, and you know what would have come out of it would have been what is necessary to grow, and that would include, English, Spanish, and (gasp!) even Slavonic and Ukrainian! We wouldn't need to bicker and argue over languages, the evangelizing would take care of it for us.
I'm really glad that Cyril and Methodius were able to figure this out, or I might still be painting myself blue and worshiping rocks somewhere in Karpaty! )
Monomakh
ps
People's reluctance to allow Hispanics their right to have Liturgy in Spanish is as puzzling as the BCA's reluctance to allow those who want Slavonic their right to consistently pray in it weekly. Slavonic has a rich history in our church and in certain communities (i.e. Cleveland and Pittsburgh) would draw people to a liturgy in Slavonic. If you doubt me, in a few weeks the Carpatho-Rusyn society will have a Vatra proceeded by the Divine Liturgy in Slavonic. It's impressive to see the numbers that turn out. It's in Burton, OH, I'd really like one day to see them celebrate these in one of our older churches (i.e. Holy Ghost in Cleveland) and see the turnout when a one hour drive isn't needed. I said it a hundred times and I'll say it again, there's no excuse why the BCA shouldn't have Spanish speaking churches in Hispanic areas and at least one Slavonic and or Ukrainian in cities like Cleveland and Pittsburgh. But that would require a plan to evangelize instead of revise.
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