www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Confusion- different religions and truth

Hello,
I'm actually eastern orthodox. I've been to several byzantine catholic services and they were similar to mine, although the church I attended actually chanted all songs, in unison, with no harmony. It was different from what I'm used to.
But anyway, I feel comfortable at byzantine catholic services. I think I'm at a point in my life where I'm trying to find what I feel is the truth. I believe that all religious organizations are flawed in one way or another because they are run by man. I would like to know the reasons behind the difference between orthodoxy and byzantine catholicism. I've spent time reading on the history of both churches but am still confused.
Also, I attended my friend's religious fellowship event. She is protestant, and the event had more modern music and singing than what I'm used to. It wasn't a church service, it was just a fellowship time on a friday evening. I see nothing wrong with attending these events, as there is a speaker, who delivers what is like a sermon, and praise music- so what if it is in a different fashion?
I am also confused on why so many orthodox and catholics are so against these kinds of worships. Is it because they are just too different and modern for some people to accept? Or because of the variant theological beliefs? They have the same core beliefs, and the differences that have emerged are due to some people not agreeing with more traditional, conservative traditions...right?
I know I rambled, I apologize for that- maybe someone would be willing to offer some insight on these topics.

jkay:

I think the reasons that Catholics and Orthodox Christians object to this type of thing amount to

1. You can become confused in your faith by the theological differences that you hear in the "sermons" or talks that you hear. It is just the idea that "we are the same/similar at the core of our beliefs" that we reject.

2. For Catholics and Orthodox Christians, worship involves sacrifice. We come into a living experience of the one-time saving sacrifice of OLJC on the Cross, His Resurrection, His Ascension, and His Glorious Second Coming through our participation in the Divine Liturgy. Protestants believe that that is impossible--that Christ suffered, that it's in the long distanct past, and that His future coming may come any time but until then we are left to our own devices, though we can find our way by personal interpretation of the Scripture (but without any reference to those who wrote the Scripture, or who were its earliest teachers).

We are not different religions--we all claim to be Christians. But there are profound differences in our approaches to what that means.

I strongly suggest you seek out your parish priest and ask him for some instruction about the Church, her doctrines, her practices, and how all this relates to others who are not of your particular Apostolic Church. Only then, with a solid background and foundation in your own Church should you venture out to experience others. Otherwise you risk being confused all your life and endangering your immortal soul.

In Christ,

BOB

Hi JKay,

I'd like to reply to your points.


May I humbly suggest that truth is not just a feeling? It is also not just idea or logic. It is these but much, much more. And Jesus Christ identified Himself as Truth.


I have no argument with that point.


Well, I'll try to summarize. Most of the Eastern Catholic churches were once part of the Orthodox Church. Then, over the last 500 years or so, parts of the various national jurisdictions of the Orthodox Church decided to be under the authority of the Bishop of Rome. This occurred in Eastern Europe and parts of the Middle East, India and even Ethiopia. The reasons were often mixed: religious beliefs (about the primacy of the pope) and political reasons (the Catholic countries were often ascendant during that time, and/or they served as a counter-weight to Orthodox countries). Well, as a result of both politics and religion, a lot of people on both sides were persecuted and killed. That resulted in a lot of bad feelings on both sides. Finally, a lot of people from both sides immigrated to other countries -- like America, Canada, Australia, etc. Happily, they escaped persecution. Sadly, they lost many people through assimilation. The question for many Orthodox and Eastern Catholics in countries like America is: why keep one's traditional religion when one has otherwise assimilated to the culture? And that leads me to your next point . . .


The fears are several. Members of the Orthodox Church and the Eastern Catholic Churches in countries like America are afraid that they will lose their people to other religions or to secularism. They are afraid because other religions are often easier to follow (not as many rules and customs), more relevant to everyday needs (e.g., they talk about money management, relationships, etc.), and more enjoyable (in their form of worship). They are also afraid because other religions are sometimes closer to modern ideas in their religious beliefs: e.g. about divorce, remarriage, birth control, church organization, the equality of women, etc. They are also afraid that the other religions don't have as much tradition, richness and depth. They are also afraid that joining another religion is just the first step to secularism. Etc. And, they often feel frustrated that a faith that has endured for centuries and with such sacrifice and hardship is blithely being abandoned . . . while their hierarchs are tinkering with worthless ideas or immersed in scandals. In short, they are afraid that their religion can't compete with other religions (or no religion at all) in modern society.

I would suggest the solution is for people to find Christ, personally, in their traditional Churches. Otherwise, they can seem hopelessly obsolete and oppressive. But with Christ, many of the traditions suddenly and wonderfully make sense.

I hope this helps.

-- John

John:

Well put.

BOB

jkay, the primary difference between Byzantine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox is that Byzantine Catholics are in communion with the Pope of Rome and all Roman Catholics worldwide, and (in some way) share that theology.

It's a little of both. Theologically, all other denominations, to one degree or another, disagree with Orthodoxy; some of the Protestant groups diverge so sharply that they can virtually be considered another religion. Many (Jehovah's Witnesses, the Way Intl., Christadelphians) recycle heresies condemned by the Church centuries ago and would be perilous to your soul. Secondarily, there's the danger you will fall in with a new group of friends and fall away from the Church through their influence. And as John pointed out, at a minimum, you may become confused by errors they teach, even if you remain Orthodox.

Music and worship is not an indifferent matter. The Church Fathers actually discussed what kind of music is acceptable for worship very early in the Church's history. St. Clement of Alexandria, in particular, said some kinds of music -- exciting, modern music -- should not be employed in worship. He wrote [newadvent.org], "Temperate harmonies are to be admitted; but we are to banish as far as possible from our robust mind those liquid harmonies, which, through pernicious arts in the modulations of tones, train to effeminacy and scurrility...Chromatic harmonies are therefore to be abandoned to immodest revels, and to florid and meretricious music."

Thanks for all your replies.
I liked reading about the points made on why music should be kept simple...and as I noted before, a byzantine catholic church I attended had very, very simple music, even moreso than my orthodox church.
I have continued to read on the differences between catholicism and orthodoxy. I am very saddened by the severe political reasons for the division. However, I admire the efforts of the Pope in steps towards unity. I was very moved by such acts of love. That is one reason why the byzantine catholic church is so appealing to me. I know that some orthodox see these churches as trying to draw orthodox away...but honestly, I personally have no problem with the pope as many orthodox do. Especially based on biblical support that Peter was the first Pope. (It's interesting though, that it seems many protestants try to specifically disprove that notion). And, I have read that the difference in the creed, the filioque, was a translational issue, and could be interpreted as "and the son" the same as "through the son"...which, when I think about it makes sense to me. I also have read that it was added just to maybe, divide the churches further, which I hope was not true.
Additionally, the reason I'm investigating these difference is because I date a roman catholic man and we talk of marriage, and what we would do in terms of our religions. We both like the idea of byzantine catholic, (I already stated some reasons why)...plus it would not confuse our children as to what religion was "right" if were maintained our individual religions. I believe it will be essential to raise children in a single faith home, especially one that, as far as I'm concerned, is in some way a symbol of unity.
There is so much conflicting information out there on "who is right", on both sides...which is why I need to do my own searching and praying and find out, what in my heart I believe is right, what God would want (not for man to be divided so intensely because of religious institutions), and what would be best for my family.

As St Paul instructs us in the Epistle to the Ephesian,
There is One Lord One Faith, One Baptism and One God and Father of All. Just as there is One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church.
It is up to us to find it.
Stephanos I

Well said, Stephanos. I wrote a tongue-in-cheek piece [westernorthodox.blogspot.com] about someone facing this dilemma.

Ben I sent you a private message-Adrien Larrarte

Well...that's kind of harsh, I was surprised by that article. Who exactly was St. Theophan the Recluse and what validity did he have in saying all non-orthodox will go to hell? I do not believe that. Wouldn't every orthodox priest say that about orthodox and every catholic priest say that about catholicism?

St. Theophan the Recluse was a bishop, saint and spiritual author in the Russian Orthodox Church during the 1800s. He is regarded by some as a spiritual father in the Orthodox Church.

http://www.oca.org/FSlives.asp

http://ocafs.oca.org/FeastSaintsViewer.asp?SID=4&ID=1&FSID=100147

St Theophan did not have authority to pronounce someone in heaven or hell; only God can do that.

Instead, St. Theophan he was trying to express to an Orthodox audience the need to trust in their religion, and the need to trust God (in His loving mercy) to take care of members of other religions.

He was not trying to be patronizing.

Instead, he was trying to help people to stay focussed and trusting in God. And one of the quickest ways to lose our focus and trust in God --and thus to put our souls in danger-- is to treat religion as a kind of philosophy that we "agree with" or "don't agree with." Instead, we should treat religion as a tool: to help us live in harmony with the life of God that is within us and the neighbor. And we do that by using the tool instead of worrying overmuch about it.

It was that kind of trust --in God, in one's religion-- that St. Theophan was trying to encourage. In short, he was trying to say: your religion is like a bridge to God; don't worry about the bridge and don't run away from it; this is your bridge and it works; so use the bridge to cross over to God; and trust that God has provided bridges for all His children too.

Yes, some people must search for their bridge --Lord knows I had to-- but once you find it, we are supposed to use it: with trust and peace.

That's just my two cents worth of opinion.

-- John

Insightful reply, John, thank you.
However, to me, I believe I do have to agree with what the religion teaches, in order for me to truely be happy in it. I don't want to follow teachings that I am unsure of, or because people tell me to. Of course, that is why I'm going through my personal journey now. At this time, I cannot say I truely believe that either orthodoxy or catholicism is the one true religion. Interestingly, last night something happened...and I don't know if it was my subconsciousness or God sending me a message. But an image occurred in my head that pointed me in one direction, not specifying which direction, but indicating that I should not let others sway me or let peoples' judgements about me affect my belief in what is right.

Ah! But if the Roman claim is correct, the he cuts himself off from the fullness of faith. And that is not safe nor wise to do!
Stephanos I

I don't understand, could you explain what you mean by that?

Hi JKay,



The reason for this division is basically that we think the same way you do. However, we do have a tendency to believe that about "the other" organization just a tad more than about our own.


I'd be careful to say it was not a "church service". Just because it is not a liturgical sevice, it doesn't mean it is not meant to be for the praise of God (that is, worship), especially in the intentions of the members of that denomination.



Maybe a little bit too simplistic, but right.

Now, you'll find that not all Catholics are opposed to non-liturgical prayer services. The charismatic movement in the Catholic Church is one of the most (if not the most) popular nowadays.

Now, the Church is very clear in that, although non-liturgical prayer services are ok, they are not meant to substitute the liturgy, especially the Eucharist, which remains the center of the spiritual life of all the faithful and the Church as a community.

This approach may not be shared by many Orthodox, though, so that is perhaps why you do not sound familiar with it.

Take care and God bless!

Shalom,
Memo