www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Scripture and Patristic Writings Apocryphal Writings Inconsistency

The inconsistency of the Apocryphal writings which is subscribed by both the East and West prove to be difficult to affirm as true. Scripture confirms scripture. Our Jewish friends do not regard the Apocryphal writings as inspired of God. This should be the first stage in affirming whether later added books of the Council of Trent are valid.

Joel you may want to do a little research to determine when it was that our Jewish bretheren abandon these books and began to consider them non-canonical. Little hint to get you going? The year it happened ends "A.D."

These Extra Biblical books are vulgar texts. None of them state that they are the word of the LORD. They are never quoted in other parts of the Bible (NT). They contradict key theological statements of justification by faith alone through grace alone.

The Jewish list must follow their TaNaK, a full list of the OT books.

The Church, which produced the Scriptures, confirms Scripture. The idea that Scripture confirms scripture is a Protestant error.

What our Jewish friends believe is inspired is of little consequence. They also do not regard Jesus as the Son of God, why would we ask them what Scriptures they consider inspired?

The Deutero-Canon was in the Septuagint long before the Council of Trent.

Fr. Deacon Lance

There are many inconsistant statements which the Apocryphal attribute to be true. To claim them as inerrant and God's word can not be verified by the NT. For instance, 1 Esdras has chronological errors of Cyrus and Darius (5:56; 5:73); 2 Esdra shows Ezra living, but he lived century later. Tobit could not have lived through the division of the Jewish Kingdom (931 BC). There are contradiction of 1 Macc. 6:1 with 2 Macc 9:2. There are even theological issues of praying for the dead 2 Macc 12:40-45 and even a post death vist by Jeremiah 15:14.

Septuagint was simply a translation of the Hebrew OT in Greek so that Greek speakers could read the OT in the heart language. This does not give ample proof to its inclusion.

One could simply argue by placing any popular reading today into our Bibles if you use the Septuagint.

"They contradict key theological statements of justification by faith alone through grace alone."

Which is another Protestant error. Because the full Canon exposes their error, the reformers rejected the Church's Canon for that of the Jamnian Council. Luther also rejected the Epistle of St. James and other Epistles that conflicted with his errors, later reformers accepted them by performing mental gymnastics to attempt to prove that the plain words of scripture like: "faith without works is dead" doesn't really mean what it means and read into it to fit Protestant error.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Joel,

Let me also remind you that this is an Eastern Christian forum. If you are here to learn about Eastern Christianity welcome back. If you are here to argue or proselytize or disrespect the beliefs of Eastern Christians I can assure, as a moderator, your return visit will be a short one.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The previous posting is surely harsh. Is this not a forum for discussion? These are attacks. I would ask the moderator to reread FR. Deacon Lance last statement.

Apart from the fact that the Church did accept the OT Canon as it appears in the Septuagint, and that is the most important fact for Christians, the Qumran documents contain a number of texts (in Hebrew or Aramaic) that support the inclusion of the Apocrypha by the Jews in Palestine.

Thus there are 2 witnesses to that textual tradition: a) the Greek Septuagint itself (from approx. 200 BC) from Alexandria, and b) (some of) the Qumran Dead Sea Scrolls (circa 100BC-AD68) in Hebrew or Aramaic.

Even Jewish scholars know and acknowledge this.

And even those Jews who did/do not acknowledge the Apocrypha as "Scipture" still regard them as worthy pious writings. Cf. The Bible as it was, by James L. Kugel, Head of Hebrew Studies at Harvard. ( The Bible as It Was (Web page) [hup.harvard.edu] )

Joel:

As a moderator on this forum thread, may I remind you that discussion does not include attacks such as you have made here. This is an Eastern Christian board and our discussions focus on the Church's understanding of Scripture and the Church Fathers, the first authentic interpreters of the Scriptures and the spiritual life of the Church.

This is not the place to bring errors and think that you are here to debate the Church.

When you were admitted to the Forum, you agreed to abide by baisc Christian charity in your postings. If you cannot abide by that which you agreed to, I will have to restrict your posting privileges.

In Christ,

BOB

Dear Bob,
I have not attacked but merely raised important questions in regards to the Eastern Church's position on the Holy Scriptures. If you wish not for this to be discussion, then simply terminate the thread and we shall move on to other issues.

I just wonder if you are scared that the descrepacies are valid and that it might cause others in the Eastern Church Tradition to question church's position?