The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
Frank O, BC LV, returningtoaxum, Jennifer B, geodude
6,176 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 301 guests, and 138 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,524
Posts417,637
Members6,176
Most Online4,112
Mar 25th, 2025
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Joe,

I printed that up and will respond in a little while . . .

-- John

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 186
Z
Zan Offline
BANNED
Member
BANNED
Member
Z Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 186
I hate to ruin it but the disgusting fact remains that amount of people who left Orthodoxy for (what I call) americanist evangelical protestantism far outnumbers the amount of those who converted from protestantism to Orthodoxy - espiecially in the motherlands such as Ukraine and Russia. This is true for Catholcism too. frown

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Originally Posted by Zan
I hate to ruin it but the disgusting fact remains that amount of people who left Orthodoxy for (what I call) americanist evangelical protestantism far outnumbers the amount of those who converted from protestantism to Orthodoxy - espiecially in the motherlands such as Ukraine and Russia. This is true for Catholcism too. frown

It doesn't ruin it for me. As a convert from one religion to another, I can't fault people from going to the religion where they find God best. What pleases me is that there actually are people converting to Orthodoxy.

-- John

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
A good article !

It is interesting but unsurprising (after Peter Gillquist et al.) that Evangelical converts to Orthodoxy in the U.S. tend to join the Antiochian jurisdiction.

Have you noticed any other patterns in conversions? Which jurisdiction do the Catholics join ? Etc. ?

-- John


Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,518
Catholic Gyoza
Member
Catholic Gyoza
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,518
Don't the Catholics go to the OCA or ROCOR?

From what I've noticed, the Catholics who go East usually go to the BCCA then OCA or they go from BCCA to OCA... or ACROD.

I've only come across one Roman Catholic who went to ROCOR without first going to an Eastern Catholic Church first. He owns a bookstore in St. Louis.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 186
Z
Zan Offline
BANNED
Member
BANNED
Member
Z Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 186
Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Don't the Catholics go to the OCA or ROCOR?

From what I've noticed, the Catholics who go East usually go to the BCCA then OCA or they go from BCCA to OCA... or ACROD.

I've only come across one Roman Catholic who went to ROCOR without first going to an Eastern Catholic Church first. He owns a bookstore in St. Louis.

Yeah noticed too that most Catholics who become Eastern Orthodox go OCA or ROCOR. I guess its because its not as ethnically imtimidating as the Greek Orthodox and OCA and ROCOR tend to have a lot of converts when compared to others (btw aren't a lot of the OCA priests actually ex-Roman Catholic priests?). I think ACROD is mostly where ex-Catholic Rusyns go as far as Catholics are concerned.

I agree about them usually going Eastern Catholic then Orthodox. I've also encountered only one Latin (who was a traditionalist btw) who went straight to ROCOR with out going to an Eastern Catholic Church, got rebaptized, then two years later "returned" to what he thinks is the Catholic Church via SSPX.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Just having finished the article, a lot of thoughts come to mind...

But the first and foremost is this - This is the same article I have been reading for 20 years. With a different convert clergyman, and a different convert layman... But by and large, as coverage in the secular press goes about this issue, well it reads the same way as say

Ancient ways entice Detroit Christians [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]

This most recent article about Fr. Wilbur and company appears at least a little more staid in its presentation of Orthodox numbers and growth. Ten years ago some articles left us wondering if there would be any Baptist/Pentecostal/Evangelical churches left in America. They were all becoming Orthodox!

I do not scandalize any when I say, I think that the early and exhuberrant projections for growth and retention were more optimistic than realistic. Kinda like the one point in my childhood when I thought the Chicago Bulls would win the championship every year for decades...

By the numbers, clergy and mission location growth has been impressive. Adult conversions, I don't have good numbers on, but after the reception of a few groups en masse two decades ago, I don't know that the growth has been what has been hoped for or expected.

Does anyone have statistics on the number of clergy - specifically priests and deacons serving the Antiochian church?





Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 36
A
BANNED
Member
BANNED
Member
A Offline
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 36
Greetings to all.

Of course there are Christians of every stripe who join other churches of every stripe. I suspect that in the US there are more evangelicals who become Catholic than Orthodox simply for the omnipresence of Catholicism and the unique theological relationship/anti-relationship Evangelicals necessarily have with Catholicism.

Still, it does not surprise me that conservative Protestants are finding refuge in the ancient churches of both East and West. In some ways there is a natural affinity to Orthodoxy over Catholicism. As do all non-Catholics Orthodox and Evangelicals share a deep seated allergy to papal authority and a corresponding decentralized ecclesiology. For those leaving the denominations, the lack of ecclesiastical democracy, which leaves all the doctrines and teachings of Christianity up for a vote every few years, is surely a breath of fresh air. Both Catholicism and Orthodoxy are relatively peaceful by comparison to the regular conventions of the Methodists, Anglicans, Lutherans, etc. Such peace and moral stability are a grace from the Lord and evidence of his abiding presence in the sacramental life of the ancient churches. (Of course, such peace is relative. We all have our debates, but at least among Catholics and Orthodox it is not about Wiccan liturgies or questioning the resurrection.)

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Could I also propose or suggest that Orthodoxy has become more and more of an option in America for two very big reasons:

1) It is more accessible to the English speaker then ever before.
2) Episcopalianism has become less and less atractive to Evangelicals.

Reason #1 is rather obvious. #2 I offer to suggest that in a real way Orthodoxy has become a home for many Evangelicals and other mainliners who would have - a generation ago - swam the Thames. Now that the erstwhile Evangelical on the pilgramage trail no longer looks at Orthodoxy and says "Its all Greek to me" or looks at Episcopalianism and says "Now that is some Catholicism I can live with!"


Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Interesting.

What I don't understand is this: Why does it seem that Catholic converts to Orthodoxy in the U.S. generally join the OCA, but Evangelical converts to Orthodoxy in the U.S. generally join the Antiochians? Or, is that an incorrect observation?

I can understand why the Eastern Catholic Churches can be, for some Catholics, a stepping stone to Orthodoxy. (And for others, I hasten to add, the Eastern Catholic Churches are home.)

I can also understand why ACROD is a natural enough step for some Catholics -- if they were already BCC and if they had an ACROD parish nearby (two big "if's").

I can also understand why seekers in the U.S. might want to join the OCA and the Antiochians (because those two jurisdictions are so assimilated, especially in language) -- instead of joining jurisdictions (like the Greeks or Serbs) who heavily identify themselves with their ethnicities (especially in language).

I can also understand that some converts might (eventually) be interested in ROCOR for its conservativeness and strictness.

So, again: Why does it seem that Catholic converts to Orthodoxy in the U.S. generally join the OCA, but Evangelical converts to Orthodoxy in the U.S. generally join the Antiochians? Or, is that an incorrect observation?


-- John

Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Member
Member
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,533
Likes: 1
Evangelicals Turn Toward ... the Orthodox Church? [tnr.com]
Quote
The ministry is a calling, but it is also a career, and, in 1987, a Baptist minister named Wilbur Ellsworth was given the career opportunity of a lifetime. After nearly two decades of pastoring modest congregations in California and Ohio, Ellsworth, at the age of 43, was called to lead the First Baptist Church of Wheaton, Illinois--one of the most prominent evangelical churches in what was then the most prominent evangelical city in the world. Often called the "Evangelical Vatican," the leafy Chicago suburb is home to Wheaton College--the prestigious evangelical college whose most famous graduate is Billy Graham--and a host of influential evangelical figures, a number of whom worshipped at First Baptist. "I was now preaching to these people every Sunday," Ellsworth recalls. "It was all sort of heady and exciting."

From a professional standpoint, Ellsworth thrived. He oversaw the construction of a majestic new building for First Baptist with a 600-seat sanctuary and a 100-foot steeple that towered over Wheaton's Main Street. And, due to the prominent evangelicals he now ministered to, he became something of a prominent evangelical himself--routinely meeting with the many evangelical leaders who constantly came through Wheaton. "I was at the very center of the religious world that I'd been a part of for most of my life," he says. "It was quite a promotion from where I was before."

From a spiritual perspective, however, Ellsworth was suffering. Over the past 20 years, a growing number of evangelical churches have joined what is called the "church growth movement," which favors a more contemporary, market-driven style of worship--with rock 'n' roll "praise songs" supplanting traditional hymns and dramatic sketches replacing preachy sermons--in the hope of attracting new members and turning churches into megachurches. First Baptist of Wheaton was not immune to this trend: Ellsworth increasingly found himself fighting with congregants about the way worship was being done. "They wanted to replace our organ with a drum set and do similar things that boiled down not to doctrine, but to personal preference," he explains. "I said, That's not going to happen as long as I'm here.'" It didn't. In 2000, after 13 years as the pastor of First Baptist, Ellsworth was forced out.





For Ellsworth, his departure from First Baptist triggered both a professional and a spiritual crisis. But, before he could deal with the former, he felt he had to address the latter. He devoted himself to reading theology and church history. At first, he seemed headed in the direction of the Calvinist-influenced Reformed Baptist Church or the Anglican Church, which are where evangelicals in search of a more classical Christian style of worship often end up. But, as Ellsworth continued in his own personal search, his readings and discussions began taking him further and further past the Reformation and ever deeper into church history. And, gradually, much to his surprise, he found himself growing increasingly interested in a church he once knew virtually nothing about: the Orthodox Church. "I really thought he'd go to Canterbury," says Alan Jacobs, a Wheaton College English professor and Anglican who is friendly with Ellsworth. "But he took a sudden right turn and wound up in Constantinople."

Ellsworth began reading more and more about Orthodox Christianity--eventually spending close to $10,000 on Orthodox books. By 2005, he was regularly visiting an Antiochian Orthodox Church in Chicago (the Antiochian Orthodox Church is Middle Eastern in background and the seat of its patriarchate is in Damascus). By late 2006, Ellsworth realized that he wanted to be Orthodox himself. On the first Sunday of the following February, an Orthodox priest in Chicago anointed him with holy oil and he was chrismated--or formally received--into the Orthodox Church. A month later, at the age of 62, he was ordained as an Orthodox priest himself.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Fr. Deacon Stan and I had the opportunity to view this video yesterday. It is excellent! It would stop a lot of traveling about. I think the Evengelical pastor doing the interview was ready to come into the Catholic Church by the time the priest was done letting him interview him.

http://www.networknewspaper.org/Art...9/Common-Ground-Project-Outstanding.aspx

You can order if from here and view a four minute clip of the video
http://www.protestantcatholic.com/

This is the background info on the project
http://www.ninevehscrossing.com/CommonGround/CGHistory.html

Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 9
Junior Member
Junior Member
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 9
I am Antiochian Orthodox, I was Chrismated in 1986. The Parish I currently attend used to be part of the Evangelical Orthodox Church. Fr. Peter Gilquist Attends our Parish ( he is retired). I have found that most Evangelical Protestants, when they deside to become Orthodox gravitate to the Antiochian Church, rather than the OCA, mainly because the AOC uses English in the Liturgy.
When I was Protestant, I was Pentecostal. Later I attended the Catholic Church, and went to daily Mass. I discovered the Orthodox Church via the Eastern Catholic Church. I didn't want to be under the Pope ( long story) so I first went to the Greek Church, then OCA, but finally found the AOC. I liked it the best, because of the English in the Liturgy. God Bless.

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
My thoughts are that Slavic Orthodoxy appeals to a latent sense of high church and litrugical/monastic traditions that Catholics tend to indentify with.

The Antiochians, by contrast, have that feel of being out of the holy land in churches that are frequently more simple, less monastic, and less ornate. I think the chants straight from the Middle East capture the mind and imagination of Evangelicals.

Just some thoughts.

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  Irish Melkite 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0