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#250943 08/29/07 08:58 AM
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There is an interesting article at MSN about prenuptial agreements.

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/HomeMortgageSavings/Prenups.aspx?page=all
(The text of the article follows.)

What do you think about prenups ?

-- John



Quote
The prenup problem:
Prenuptial agreements can protect you and make divorce less painful if your marriage fails. So why are women so resistant?

By Kris Frieswick, MSN Money

http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/Investing/HomeMortgageSavings/Prenups.aspx?page=all



When my husband, Andrew, and I got married, signing a prenuptial agreement didn't occur to either of us. I owned less than nothing, thanks to my credit cards, so I had less than nothing to protect. It's odd that it didn't occur to my husband, since he had assets like a home and investments, but it didn't.

Off we strolled into wedded bliss, committed to the idea that whatever we earned, gained or found lying in a paper sack on the side of the road would be added to the community pot. We've never regretted the decision to forgo a prenup, and I don't expect we ever will, unless � yes, the D-word. Video: Why no prenup?

No one marries planning on divorce. A 2003 Harvard Law School study showed that although survey subjects knew the national divorce rate is more than 50%, they estimated their own likelihood of getting divorced one day to be about 12%. It's called optimism bias, and it's one reason only 1% of married couples reported prenups in a 2002 survey by Harris Interactive for Lawyers.com.

Amy Nixon is optimism bias incarnate. She's a 23-year- old newlywed who chose to skip a prenup for one simple reason -- she has no intention of ever getting divorced. "My husband doesn't believe in divorce, and neither do I," says Nixon, who is a fundraiser for the

Virginia Holocaust Museum, a full-time student and an Army reservist. Her husband, Randy Martin, is a 20-year-old Army enlisted man doing a tour in Ethiopia.

The problem is that while Amy might not believe in divorce, it believes in her. Even Amy is aware that, as a couple in their early 20s, she and her husband stand a better chance of getting divorced than even the general married population. But she's still confident in her decision. "I felt if I wanted a prenup, I was indirectly telling him I didn't trust him," she says.

Many couples share her skepticism. When Erika (who asked that her last name not be used) got engaged, she had a unique perspective on prenups. She's a 30-year-old lawyer in Minot, N.D. She'd been a family-law attorney for two years and had helped many couples write prenups and many others get divorced. Still, when it was her turn, she opted out of a prenup.

"In the divorces that I saw," she says, "the determining factor of whether they were miserable or not was based on what type of people they were rather than whether they had a prenup."

She is fully confident her man would fight fair if the "D" day ever came: "It all depends on who you marry," she says. Video: Two types of divorce

There are times when circumstances clearly favor a prenup. A prenup may be legally required if one partner is heir to a closely held family business that requires its owners to legally protect their interests. If a couple is bringing children from a previous marriage into the union, prenups can protect the children's right to their parents' assets. And since Kevin Federline departed his marriage to Britney Spears with only a reported $1 million of her $100 million fortune, we can assume that they both signed an airtight prenup -- much-needed protection when one partner is substantially wealthier than the other and that optimistic outlook turns out to be slightly delusional.

When Leslie Dashew, a consultant for family businesses, got remarried last year, she and her husband both brought children into the picture. A prenup made sense as part of Leslie's overall estate planning.

"That didn't make it any easier," she says. "It's difficult to talk about money. But what a prenup does is force couples to talk about what we have and what we're planning to do with it. What do we own individually, and what will we share?"

She says it's vitally important to have that conversation before marriage, whether or not a prenup is involved. A prenup merely forces a couple to get very, very specific

about it.

Still, says Sheryl Kurland, an expert on long-lived marriages, having a prenup admits that divorce may one day be an option -- exactly the wrong attitude necessary for a successful union. Video: Do you have a prenup?

The author of "Everlasting Matrimony: Pearls of Wisdom from Couples Married 50 Years or More" says that among the couples she interviewed for her book, "the word divorce never crossed their minds." Which is, of course, why they were married for 50 years.

"I have many friends who have been divorced, and on their wedding day, they knew they were making the wrong decision," Kurland says. "There were always flags that they didn't tune into, and those are the things that blew up in their face as the years wore on."

But who doesn't put on rose-colored glasses when gazing at her betrothed? A rational observer might say that it makes sense to admit that you're wearing them, acknowledge you don't have your head on straight and cover your butt with a prenup.

No way, Kurland says. "A prenup is just an avoidance of issues and challenges until you fail." Video: Who owns the embryos?

In the end, in spite of all the legal documentation, conversation and calculation options available, the best prenup may be choosing a spouse well. At least, that's the prenup Andrew and I are going with.

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As a widow with two young children, I would insist on a prenup to ensure the security of my sons' inheritance from their father and the money I have set aside for them since his death.

If I should ever remarry (and no, there's no glimpse of that on my horizon -- but if y'all want to put me on your prayer list for such a blessing I wouldn't object), a prenup would be protection not only in case of divorce, but also if THAT man should predecease me. Our agreement would clarify for any of his other heirs what property and assets we agreed to hold in common and what property and assets we agreed to hold separate.

As a never-been married woman, I would not want a prenup and would have tossed my dear man out the door if he had suggested it. I also do not think that it bodes well for married couples to have separate bank accounts. If you cannot agree on the use of money, how can you agree on the direction of your lives? If you cannot trust your spouse with your money, how can you trust your spouse with your body and soul?

That's my 2 cents. Or is it 4, since I advocate both for and against the prenup?

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Aren't prenups grounds for annulment in the Catholic Church? My understanding is that according to Catholic teaching is that engaging in a prenup agreement automatically makes a marriage null and void. Am I right?

I have no idea what the Orthodox Church teaches about this. Does anyone know?

Joe

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I dont believe prenups invalidate the marrige unless they are of a nature which goes against marriage.
The are merely legal safeguards.
Stephanos I

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Originally Posted by Stephanos I
I dont believe prenups invalidate the marrige unless they are of a nature which goes against marriage.
The are merely legal safeguards.
Stephanos I

Father Stephanos,

Thank you for the clarification.
Joe

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Joe:

IMHO, a pre-nup says, nonverbally, that one is not sufficiently trusting of the person one is about to marry. I'd say I'd have to back off when the subject came up and reassess.

My son dodged the bullet on a woman who wanted to marry him and who had brought up the subject long, long before they had ever begun to discuss marriage. To me, if someone brings up pre-nup early in the relationship, one ought to really thin hard about taking another step in its development.

BOB

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Personally, I think a prenuptial agreement is great for couples who are emotionally capable of handling it. It forces couples to think realistically about how their marriage could end. Nobody plans to get a divorce when they get married, but about 50% of marriages do end in divorce. Hopefully, a prenuptial agreement spurs a couple to exert extra care to avoid divorce . . . or to think twice about getting married in the first place. Also, as Penthaetria observed, a prenuptial agreement can be a good way to keep assets straight in the case of a second marriage where one or both persons has children from prior relationships and thus there are inheritance issues.

-- John

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Originally Posted by harmon3110
Personally, I think a prenuptial agreement is great for couples who are emotionally capable of handling it. It forces couples to think realistically about how their marriage could end. Nobody plans to get a divorce when they get married, but about 50% of marriages do end in divorce. Hopefully, a prenuptial agreement spurs a couple to exert extra care to avoid divorce . . . or to think twice about getting married in the first place. Also, as Penthaetria observed, a prenuptial agreement can be a good way to keep assets straight in the case of a second marriage where one or both persons has children from prior relationships and thus there are inheritance issues.

-- John

I am an attorney, and I have to say, that while I'll draft a pre-nup for anyone who asks me for one, I personally advise against them in the case of young people getting married for the first time. Usually, a prenup is suggested because one party (usually the guy) has a lot more net worth than the other, and they want to walk away from the marriage with what they brought in. But marriage is a "one flesh" proposistion, and I think one should not have a pre-planned surgical procedure in their back pocket for the one-flesh concept.

As for second marriages with blended families, I see prenups as helping establish an understanding for the sake of the children of the previous marriage, to allow for smooth disposition of property brought into the marriage intended for the children of that particular spouse.

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And now, a different twist . . . the rise of the "postnup"

See http://www.portfolio.com/careers/features/2007/08/27/The-Rise-of-the-Postnup

An agreement regarding the division of property AFTER you get married? Spouses have no leverage -- you can't threaten to not show up for the wedding anymore -- but its usually employers who are looking for this kind of deal to preserve peace and harmony on the job. The bottom line conclusion here is divorce is inevitable, and we all might as well protect whatever we can, even if our partner or employee is the one with the biggest stake in it.

Heaven help us all.

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Hello,

As far as a prenup as basis for an annullment, I would like to say that, sadly, nowadays annullments are granted for less than that.

For instance, annullments are easily granted to couples who always use artificial contraception on the basis that there had never been a real intention to have children and, therefore, the marriage has never been fully consummated.

I can easily see a tribunal accepting the argument that, because of the prenup, the couple was always open to the possibility of a "temporary" marriage, which is contrary to the Catholic sacramental theology of marriage and therefore, they could not have the right intention to enter into sacramental marriage and therefore there was no sacrament.

I think it is inaccurate that a prenup automatically annulls a marriage, but I do believe that, which the current canonical practices in the Latin Church in Europe and North America, a prenup automatically gets you an annullment case (you may still not get it, but you do have a case).

Shalom,
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I have seen situations where prenups are useful. Example...

My friend and her husband had one. They were married for over 10 years, I think closer to 15. These are not people who rushed into marriage too young. They had beautiful children together. She owned a successful business when the marriage started and it has grown into a larger and more successful business in the time since. She was definitely the one bringing in most of the income and she was also most definitely the responsible one who was going to make sure the income went to important use, like taking care of the children and their needs and planning for retirement. Well, turns out he was secretly batting for the other team, as the expression goes. They divorced. Years of friendship turned very icy. But the prenup certainly helped explain their expectations to the court. She and her children are still in their home and her business never was endangered by the divorce, as both parties had agreed she retained full ownership and it was not open for him to seek any contribution from it.

I still believe most people enter into marriage deciding to commit to it. But crazy stuff happens. Like to my friend.

My husband and I do not have a prenup. We always retained some separate property, however, but not because of fear of divorce. A prenup could clarify the status of that property, but we decided not to do one. We did consider the option of a prenup, briefly. Most of our friends did do them. To me - I dunno - I'm competitive and in part that makes me hate to go into anything admitting failure is an option, especially marriage to my best friend.

But what happened to my friend is a cautionary tale.



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