www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News tighter standards for beatifications ?

Pope Benedict 16th is apparently calling for tighter standards for beatifications.

http://www.spiritdaily.com/cwtemplate.htm

caveat: I saw this article on Spirit Daily, but it is quoted from CWNews.com (which is a subscription news service). I have not seen any confirmation of this on Zenit or Catholic News Service.

-- John

Dear Friend,

Well, I think it would be difficult to disprove that a terrorist attack on someone because he or she wears a Cross or a religious habit is NOT martyrdom.

As for accepting martyrdom, it is very often the case that martyrs don't have time to think about it at any great length.

One of the Ukrainian Catholic nun-martyrs simply answered the door when a communist agent shot her dead where she stood.

As for physical miracles, this is actually getting harder and harder to prove - scientists are beginning to find the whole matter rather difficult and some won't participate in the process because they don't want the Church to use their findings to declare a miracle etc.

And what about the issue of saints from poorer countries that can't afford the often great sums of money needed to "prove" all this?

I don't think this is a particularly good comment for the Holy Father to make in this case . . .

Alex

John, Christ is Risen!

Here is a link to a story along the same lines from Catholic News Agency. This story seems to confirm your link.

CNA Story [catholicnewsagency.com]

In the Risen Christ,
Father Anthony+

Dear Alex you said:

I say:

Actually I agree with the Pope. For someone to wear a cross and to be killed for wearing that cross, does not mean that person was a martyr. To know that they are taking their lives in their hands by wearing that cross, and yet through dedication to help the poor and sick, be killed because of it, would be martyrdom.

We have to differentiate here between a sinner that happened to fall into unfortunate circumstances, and a true Christian that was willing to suffer for what they believed.

Also when God wants to declare someone a saint, there is a definite movement of the people towards that goal. Many times in the RCC, the bishop was against a saint, and yet the people pushed forward his or her beatification to the Pope. Miracles usually abounded, as it has in the Orthodox Church.

As for the religious that died in the Soviet Union, we do not know for sure how many were really martyrs, or were simply clergy or monks that just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time. Then again, they could have run away before being arrested...and no doubt some did.

I say, let's bring back the devil's advocate.

Zenovia

I had a vague idea that I had seen some of these comments previously and was interested that he was following up on a previous instruction.

It was Pope JPII who had taken upon himself presiding at Beatifications when it had not been the practice for the Popes to do so. Usually a Cardinal did this. Pope Benedict seems to be returning to the previous practice with the major difference of the option of moving the ceremony out of Rome all together. A continuation of of the previous popes of devolving out to the Bishops of the world various roles.

I think all the Pope is doing in his talk is encouraging those whose job it is to follow up on claims of sanctity, to maintain the highest standards in the job. We dont want any lowering of standards.

I suspect the story of the UGCC SSMI Sister who was shot in the doorway had a bit more to it that a seemingly random act on the part of the Soviet soldier. What that was I have no idea. As many died in those years there must have been something to make this death different.

ICXC
NIKA

I've heard that a Martyr is usually already "A Saint," if I may put it this way, before he or she is killed. So it wouldn't make a difference if he or she was killed or not he or she would have ended up a Saint anyway!

The question is was a particular person 'martyred' in the first place. I think Dr Eric you may have jumped one stage in the process. If they are 'martyrs' to the statisfaction of the Church that is fine. If they died because a gun held by someone discharged by accident then they would not quiet possibly not be martyrs.

ICXC
NIKA

Christ is Risen!

What do you mean by I have jumped one stage in the process? I meant that martyrs were already intrinsically Saints before becoming Martyred.

Dr. Eric

I think Pope Benedict is a person of incredible good sense. The "saint factory" that operated under the previous administration did seem to go to excess. Had it continued, who knows...? We might be praying to St. Edna the Cleaning Lady.

Don't we believe those declared saints by the Church really is a saint?

Except if we believe that the Church can wrongly declare a damned soul as a saint.

But because I believe that won't happen, I don't mind to ask St. Edna the Cleaning Lady to pray for me

Dear ByzTN you said:

I say:

Actually, one has to remember that there had been a back log of highly virtuous people waiting to be sanctified by the Church for decades if not for centuries. I had heard that it requires a great deal of time, and Pope John Paul II decided to go ahead to do that which was too burdensom for those before him.

Frankly I was surprised to find out that Saint Joan of Arc was not sanctified until the beginning of the last century...undoubtably do to the amount of miracles, or miraculous appearances during the First World War. I say this as one that had read a book written about that time. It had a story about one appearance to a French soldier, as well as the appearance of an angelic army that fought the Germans in one battle in Belgium.

Interesting, huh?

Zenovia

Gosh I never knew the devotion to St Edna patron saint of cleaning ladies and a Dame of the Order of the British Empire was so widespread. Not that she was a cleaning lady herself, she was just nice to them, poor creatures that they are.

ICXC
NIKA

Frankly I think her award was really because of the publicity she gave to Optometrists

hehehe. Too funny. But I think one side effect from so many canonizations, is that many are canonized and quickly forgotten. There are so many saints, east and west, I can't keep up with them anymore. Chocolate in honor of St. Edna, holy scourge of dirt, heroic scourer of pantries, and dustball slayer extraordinary.

This I agree with. I have been trying to digest the news and what the pope is trying to do. I think it amounts to this: maintaining high standards for discerning saints.

I suspect this is to counter the emotional (and understandable) tendency to want to elevate any murder or self-sacrifice into something more meaningful. But, the sad truth is that not all murders or sacrifices are martyrdoms in the traditional sense of the word. And unless that traditional sense is strictly maintained, the word "martyr" will inevitably be diluted to meaning nothing much at all.

On the other hand, I hope this new statement by the pope will not be used to deny real martyrdoms -- even if they are politically inconvenient martyrdoms. I'm thinking of the four American churchwomen who were killed in El Salvador in 1981, the killing of Archbishop of El Salvador, Oscar Romero, in 1980; the killing of Bishop Juan Jose Garcia of Guatemala in 1998, and many others -- all of whom were assassinated for living and preaching the Gospel, including the part about "thou shall not kill."


This I respectfully disagree with. I think her death was not exceptional, and her case epitomizes the savagery and casual murderousness of the persecution of Christians by the Communists in the Soviet Union. I believe that she was shot --and martyred-- by the Communists because she loved Jesus Christ and because the Communists hated Jesus Christ.

As an aside, there is a powerful and thorough book about all of this: "Catholic Martyrs of the Twentieth Century" by Robert Royal. He covers the world and the thousands who died in the 20th century because they loved Jesus Christ. Of course, it doesn't get into much detail about Orthodox or Protestant martyrs -- the book is about Catholic martyrs. Nevertheless, the author clearly gives the fact that thousands of Christians (regardless of denomination and from around the world) loved Jesus Christ enough to lay down their lives for Him when they (and He) were persecuted in 20th century.

-- John