www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I like the changes to the Divine Liturgy, anybody else agree?

I, for one, like the changes in our Divine Liturgy. It is taking some getting accustomed to but overall it seems to be going well. The verbal "flavor" actually seems richer. We have a young priest, Father Andrew, who has quietly and humbly re-energized the Byzantine Catholic community here in Erie County PA. Life is good. My only wish is that the petitions, answered "Grant it O Lord" were included in our Divine Liturgy.
I wish everyone could get over their bias. I am sure the Divine Liturgy of the 6th, 10th, 17th and 20th centuries have very little in common with each other. The bad news for some of us is that it an ever evolving piece of work. And that is the good news for some of us.

You guies up in Erie County do have a great priest with Fr. Andrew!

I've known him since he was a seminarian, and periodically come up to Erie to teach the dance group. I was just there last Saturday for Liturgy.

He has re-energized the churches up there.

Anthony,

I've only attended a few Liturgies using the RDL, and my overall reaction is mildly positive. Although I dislike the use of inclusive language in a number of places, my only real complaint is having to look up the number for which melody to use for different parts of the Liturgy (it would be nice if the cantor would announce the number).

I've noticed that the melodies include more notes than were previously used and seem to have a nicer flow. Some repetition of phrases has been eliminated, but that is not always a bad thing. For example, in the proclamation, "We praise You, we bless You, we thank You O Lord, and we pray to You, our God," the third phrase was formerly repeated twice and the fourth one three times--something we have never done in the Ukrainian usage.

I do like those petitions, and prior to the RDL I never even saw them included as an option in a Ruthenian pew book.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Good afternoon.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

As I stated in a post from a month or so back, our mission's experience with the RDL has been positive. I personally do not have any problem with the inclusive language. The only issue I have with the revision is in the Communion Prayer, specifically the phrase: ...when You come in Your Kingdom. It just doesn't sound like correct English. I don't understand why "into" was replaced by "in".

On the music side, one of the melody options for the "Hymn to the Only-Begotten Son" is just impossible to sing for the average layguy.

Question... the MCI site graciously publishes the "music" for upcoming Sundays. I've noticed that (for example, the Sunday following the Holy Transfiguration) that there were two tropars, two kondaks, two prokemenons, and two alleluias (the first for the Sunday and the second for the Feast). It is my understanding that only three total tropars are to be sung (e.g.,2 troparion/1 kontakion) and one prokemenon and one alleluia. If this is so, then why post all of them? Seems a little confusing to the average layguy.

Also related to the MCI site... I've noticed new opening/"gathering" hymns. Although the BCA parishes I've attended/visited have always used an opening hymn, this practice I understand is not correct. The hymns that folks sing prior to the DL were put there in cases where matins/orthos were not celebrated. In fact, the hymn(s) should be ending as the priest begins the incensing for the DL. If we are returning to our "Greek" tradition, then we should not be encouraging the use of these hymns to begin/open the Liturgy.

P.S. Excuse my spelling/grammar of Greek terms.

I'm really glad you like the changes, and the RDL. (But, if you had a chance to experience the Ruthenian Recension, I bet you'd like that more.)

Although I don't like the Revised Liturgy, I am not arguing to have 'my way'.

I don't think our Liturgy should be based on what I like, or you like, or Fr. Andrew likes, or Fr. David likes, or even what the Archbishop likes.

That is a bad way of organizing a Church.

I don't think we should reorganize the Byzantine Liturgy according to my 'likes' or anyone elses either.

I think we should simply accept the books of our Ruthenian Recension as they are. They are fine.

Of course, we need a clear, beautiful, accurate, careful, precise, and prayerful English translation (without additions, deletions, reorganizations of any kind).

But not even because it is what I would 'like'. But because it is the right thing to do.

Revising the Liturgy according to anybody's 'likes' is the wrong thing to do, and will lead us all down a road that will satisfy none of us.

Nick

My reaction is mixed. Some things I like, some I really dislike.

In our parish, we've worked hard to make its adoption as painless as possible, and I think we have succeeded. There may be difficulties with the new book (indeed, I could make a long list), but those who grouse that it is unsingable, or that the book is unfollowable, are overstating things in order to support their position. Such statements, which are clearly not true, will cause people to be less receptive to other true statements about problems with the RDL.

I do wish the galleys of the book had been vetted before going to the printer. We could have improved it much with simple things like an index or running headers. Alas.

The root meaning of "kingdom" is the authority and office of a king; then by extension, it is used to mean the territory over which this kingship or kingdom is exercised. Think about the Lord's Prayer and "Thy kingdom come"; just as we say God will "come in glory", we say he will "come in his kingdom".


Out of curiosity - you're thinking of the third (C) setting? The first is the one we used all the time at my original parish, and the second is the one we used at my present parish; while the third is a setting of the old melody "for the departed" - listen [metropolitancantorinstitute.org]
in Slavonic. It certainly is less "Western" than the others, but this is often the case with the funeral melodies.


The Typikon (by which I mean the Slavonic (Nikonian) Sabaite Typikon, together with the Galician and Rusyn commentaries that describe its traditional use in the Greek Catholic churches) prescribe several troparia and kontakina, two prokeimena, two sets of Alleluia verses, two Epistles, and two Gospels (!) for quite a few Sundays in the year.

Father David Petras' typikon provides these rules, along with a set of pastoral recommendations which simplify the system SOMEWHAT. For example, on a Sunday which is also the feast day of a saint of "polyeleos" rank or above:


Points to note:

When two prokeimena are sung, the first is NOT repeated after the final verse associated with it; and the Alleluia is treated the same way. When there are two readings, only the first is announced. This is briefly explained in Father David's Typikon. The Cantor's Companion provides some additional guidance.

Now, it is a fact that MANY parishes customarily take only one at most two troparia, one kontakion, one prokeimenon, Alleluia, Epistle, and Gospel. But the normative Typikon for the Byzantine Catholic Church directs the use of a fuller form, and describes the "fullest" form. The publications of the Metropolitan Cantor Institute generally follow the "recommended format" in Father David's Typikon; the hymns for the Divine Liturgy are almost always to be found in the Green Book, but it can take some page turning. (The old Lekvolic pew book simply omitted many of them, and parishes used John Vernoski's leaflets or other sources for the pre-festive and saints' hymns.)

Of course, if your parish priest directs that only 2 or 3 troparia/kontakia are to be sung, that's what you do; and I am familiar with a number of parishes where this is the case.


According to the Cantor's Companion, prepared and approved by the Music Commission: "The custom of singing hymns before and after the Divine Liturgy is greatly beloved by the faithful of the Byzantine Catholic Church, and is encouraged." This is followed by some guidelines for choice of hymns. On the other hand, singing of such hymns at Communion is discouraged, except for those specifically associated with Holy Communion - and that only after the appointed liturgical Communion Hymn and its psalm verses have been sung.

I hope this helps!

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

Does anyone know where one can get the ACROD typikon? I'm assuming that one is prepared yearly as well. It would be interesting to see how they order the services, especially for such days? Is it available online anywhere? Also is Fr. Petras' available online or does one have to buy a hardcopy edition?

I at first supported the revision because I support our hierarchy. Then when it was implemented I started to have second thoughts. However, it truly is growing on me and I am glad I am "sticking it out" as I would have regret leaving. It is amazing how God can work inside of us when we are not so hung up on the material part of the Liturgy but rather transcend to the Immaterial.

The novus ordo grew on the Latin Catholics for decades--and now they are beginning to see the many errors.

So are you implying that I am fooling myself and that I will "come to my senses"? I should have said that the defense I put up is slowly coming down as I accept that my hierarchs are much wiser than I.

No, no, no my friend. I cannot read hearts. Everyone has their own blessed path to follow. You must follow yours.
I do not believe that hierarchs are wiser because they are hierarchs. The laity is every bit a part of the Church as are the clergy and hierarchs. Yet the laity and the clergy were shut out of the revision process. To me, that is suspect. But then again, this is no longer my Church, so I am no longer emotionally invested. We will be Chrismated into Holy Orthodoxy this coming Sunday, September 23!

Hooray!!!

Congratulations on your upcoming Chrismation Recluse. I hope Orthodoxy is as spiritually uplifting for you and yours as it has been for me.

Thank you Etnick. There is great peace and joy in our family. I do not have the words to express how grateful I am to be entering the Holy Orthodox Church!