www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Is this the Great Apostasy?

St, Paul, at " Tessalonians wrote:

�Let no one deceive you in any way, for the day of the Lord will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and is exalted above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sits in the temple of God and gives himself out as if he were God.... And now you know what restrains him, that he may be revealed in his proper time. For the mystery of iniquity is already at work; provided only that he who is at present restraining it, does still restrain, until he is gotten out of the way. And then the wicked one will be revealed...� (2 Thess. 2:3-8).

Is it possible that we might be living in this period of the Great Apostasy?

It's quite evident that the people in Europe for example have lost the Christian faith, only a tiny minority practices a religion. The Western Church is going through a severe crisis, today there are very few bishops who hold the Christian faith as it was practiced before and many liberal doctrines have been introduced. The society now supports abortion, homosexuality and other forms of anti-natural actions as permissible.

In other countries (Cuba, Mexico) people have reverted to some forms of sorcery and magic to replace the Christian faith that is no longer taught as it was before. In Africa the inculturation has failed to make people authentic Christians.

It's certainly true that in the East we can still find true Christianity, but will this last long?

The one world government will be established not before this century comes to an end, maybe a one world religion will be supported.

Are we approaching the reign of the Anti-Christ?

It's possible as well that there will be a great awakening of the faith in the coming decades. It's difficult to go too far into "how" Christianity is being lost in culture, sociological studies are limited and our own perceptions are bound by limited resources. There is a culture of modern hedonism, that can't be doubted. But, there are many who are coming to faith. They just don't own the major presses or influence in Hollywood.

I have heard much talk like this from Evangelicals who embraced a certain reading of Revelation from the late 19th century. It's impossible to be certain of such matters, it may be better to work to strengthen our own parishes and others to the limits of our graces and let God handle the rest.

Terry

I tend to agree with Mexican. All over the world, all we seem to see are post-Christian societies where the faith is scorned and reviled. One look at 1 St Timothy 3:1-5 and it certainly looks to me like we're in the end times. For some reason though, that seems to bother alot of people. I mentioned it to a 70 year old woman after mass a couple weeks ago, and it seemed to upset her.

It's true that there are post-Christian societies, but does that mean that it will always be that way and get worse?

I have to say that this passage of St. Paul strikes me as too mysterious to understand. As are certain passages from Revelations and Daniel.

We all know that we have been in "the end times" since the Ascension, anyway. And there certainly is plenty of apostasy out there now, but there have been other times of apostasy before this.

But, I think the only thing to do is "steady the course", pray for our own sanctification/theosis so that we can reach out to others also. Don't become afraid; don't shrink back; just persevere.

"These world crises are crises of saints." -- St. Josemaria Escriva de Balaguer

My own opinion is that we always should live (or, for those like me who are still so prone two sin, always at least seek to live) as if this world will end and the final establishment of the Kingdom of God in all Christ's eschatological glory will begin today, because we do not know when these things will take place. I believe Jesus's words about the end of the world compel us to live every moment for God, but at the same time, free us from worrying about time lines.

Ryan

The End is coming for all of us within the next 70 years. For some of us it will be sooner than that. That's why we are supposed to live like the wise virgins who stayed awake and waited for their Master to return.

Firstly I would say to people, a lot of what we hear about is out there to lead us to despair. There are saints in the making struggling mightily and some great things happening out there. Watch the news, you would think we were all a bunch of dissidents, apostates, heretics and the like. Like there is nothing to be hopeful for. BALDERDASH!

As to the prophecies and end-times speculation?

When I was a teenager I got suckered into being obsessed with prophecy and apparitions about the end times. TOTAL garbage from unapproved apparitions and feces (strongest word I will use) like Nostradamus and that occultic group of lies.

Garbage written by Hal Lindsay, the Scofield Reference Bible, apparitions from "Our Lady of Stumblebum, Iowa", 700 club speculation about the EU, the bar codes or microchips as "Marks of the Beast" talk of severe weather being worse lately, and last but not least that trash "Left Behind" - the books and movies... Pure prideful, pedantic, poo-poo (the other stong word I will use.)

If you have any books, recordings or DVDs about stuff like that, throw them out. Don't read them, don't give them away to other people to read, put them in the landfill or use them to start a nice fall fire. That is the only good thing they are useful for.

But IF we were near (and it gets nearer every day by a day - even if its 1 day away or 1000 years...) it doesn't change anything.

St. John Berchmans was shooting pool in the novitiate when someone asked him what he would do if he found out the end of the world had begun. He answered "I'd keep shooting pool."

Sound strange? Well consider he was in a novitiate and it was the appointed time for recreation. He was under obedience to those who were forming him to do what he was told - recreate. And if the end of the world had begun, he was going to be found by the end, in obedience.

Well, guess what? We are under obedience too. Not as Jesuits or monks maybe... But we are under obedience as Christians - single, married, parents, priests, nuns, whichever... We are to be found at the end doing what we are expected to do.

St. Robert Bellarmine warned against obsessing about it or trying to determine the identity of the anti-Christ for ONE good reason... You run the risk of getting it wrong, not knowing, and then REALLY falling int some hot water when you are swept up in something that you are unable to identify as dangerous because you are only prepared against the dangers of what you wrongly predicted.

(Sure I will follow this moron named "Rob" because I already figured out the anti-christ will be named "Bob"!)

So go to confession, pray, go to liturgy, be fortified with the Eucharist, and don't worry about it. False prophets or obsession with something you cannot know, will just distract you. And who would that please?

The Devil makes plans for the pious, brothers and sisters. Don't get suckered into this garbage - it breeds pride, despair, and most of it borders on the occult.

Many Christians live carelessly and even in sin because they do not take seriously enough the upcoming Universal Judgment; it seems to them a very remote and uncertain event. To improve our spiritual life, we should remind ourselves that prior to that final and ultimate Judgment there constantly occur particular Divine judgments. Indeed, throughout all of history we see cases of particular Divine judgments over individuals, places, and even whole nations. Vivid examples of this are the global deluge at the time of Noah, the destruction of the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah, the repeated ravages of Israel, the fall of ancient Assyria and Babylon, the sudden destruction of the immoral Pompeii, and the fall of the Roman Empire and other mighty kingdoms. Even large Christian nations such as Byzantium and Russia did not escape God's judgment when their people deviated from the Christian life. It always happens as Jesus explained about the particular judgment: "wherever there appears a carcass [moral decay], there will the eagles be gathered together" (Matt. 24:28).

In order to forewarn us about moral decay and inspire us to renew our spiritual life, the Savior kindly warned us: "Be prepared, for in the hour which you don't expect, the Son of Man will come." Therefore, we should be attentive to our spiritual state. We should strive that the lamp of our faith does not stop shining and the that garment of the soul remains clean. Then the coming of Christ on earth will become a desirable event, as it was for the Christians in apostolic times. This Second Coming will be perceived as the end to all wrong doing, crimes, and calamities and the beginning of a new life in the renewed world.

Among the already fulfilled signs of the end of the world we should mention: a) the spread of the Gospel message over the whole globe; b) the intensifying process of moving away from the faith by peoples who were Christians from the early centuries; c) the beginning of the return to Jesus Christ of many Jews; d) the increasing number of false prophets and wild cults and; e) the fall of moral standards, with the increase of horrible crimes, witchcraft, and satanism.

As to the contemporary decrease of moral standards, we know that people were always sinful to a larger or smaller degree. But in the past they used to recognize their wrongdoing and attempted to correct it. A peculiarity of our time is that sinful deeds are declared to be okay and even raised on a pedestal. For example, supporters of abortion and groups of homosexuals organize mass demonstrations and demand special rights for themselves. Gazing at them, one remembers the words the Prophet Isaiah said before the destruction of Jerusalem: "The look on their countenance witnesses against them, and they declare their sin as Sodom. They do not hide it. Woe to their soul! For they have brought evil upon themselves" (Is. 3:9). The other gloomy peculiarity of our time is the obtrusive intrusion of all kinds of depravities and vulgarities in those spheres of life which traditionally were expressions of the most bright and noble aspects of mankind's spirit � music, art, and literature. Evaluate from the Christian standpoint popular rock music and heavy metal, full of cacophony and crude and voluptuous yelling; some modern ugly paintings and sculptures; and the many movies full of violence and vulgarity. And with alarm we observe how the growing spiritual void in people is being filled by a dark alien force, which is leaving its imprint upon the affairs of daily life and even the appearance of people.

Seeing all these foretold signs, we still cannot predict the exact time at which the world will end. Nevertheless, it should not be very far away. Predictions by our Optina elders and other pre-Revolutionary righteous people of Russia give us reason to think that with the downfall of communism and the beginning of spiritual rebirth in Russia, the next to the last page of world history has been turned, following which will be the coming of the Antichrist and the fulfillment of the predictions in the book of Revelation.

May the merciful Lord guide and protect all of us in the coming times of trial. Amen!

ALexandr

Simple Sinner-

Well said.

The only thing I'd add to this thread is, on what basis do we believe that things were better before? Is it just our assumption? A reading of Church history, to my mind, suggests that always and everywhere there are good spots and there are apparently cataclysmic bad spots, and the the nature varies.

Read for instance some of St John Chrysostom's homilies and one might believe that people are better churchgoers today than they were in 4th century Constantinople. The main difference is that before Christianity was always there as a reference point , whereas today that reference has been replaced by overt and unchallenged individual satisfaction (one of the points Alexandr made).

Is that cult of individualism a particular American trait?

Terry

Hey, what'd I ever do to you?

BOB

See once again, that Bob will never spell his name with all caps, so it isn't you... LOL

I say myself that during the 4th Century nearly all the bishops, patriarchs and even popes were Arians or in communion with the Arians. At that time people (Orthodox Christians) could have said that it was the Great Apostasy because many had lost the faith. The Church neverthless recovered from that crisis.

However, at that time I don't think there was the corruption that we can find among the clergy nowadays (all kinds of corruption) and the total abandonment of the faith (at that time there was heresy but today people have totaly abandoned the faith).

The Cult of Man and its passions has become the official religion of our times in many ways.

Now regarding the individualist ideology as particularly American I would say it's not American but part of the Revolution, the subversion that started with the French Revolution whoch also inspired the Independence of the USA and other countries, the masonic ideals are finaly a reality today.

As an aside note, I think that the Antichrist will rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and it will deceive many who are awaiting for it to be rebuilt by the messiah. (Not capitalized for a reason.) Our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ was sacrificed once for all and He did away with the Old Law and its oblations of lambs and bullocks. Many people think that He is coming back to start this up again. But that temple was raised to the ground and cannot be rebuilt by human hands, remember Julian the Apostate?