www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Higher Calling? Women Ordained to the "Catholic" Priesthood

But it is not the homily which drives the mass; though it can definitely enrich it.

Terry

I think the theology behind the whole question goes beyond the utilitarian argument of the interchangeability of man and woman.

The thumbnail sketch that I offer is not exhaustive, but a quick overview of some very profound theology.

The priest stands at the head of the community, serving the Divine Liturgy. The Divine Liturgy is that--God's sacred action in which we are privileged to participate by our baptism and chrismation. The priest stands in the person of Christ--he is conformed to Christ by ordination. Christ is the One Who leads the People of God, the Mystical Body of Christ, the Church into the renewed relationship with God the Father brought about by His Blessed Passion, Death, and Resurrection.

The Church is spoken of as the Bride of Christ, as well as his Mystical Body. As such, we are all--men and women in the Body of Christ, the People of GOd--the feminine parts of the relationship between Christ and the espoused People of God.

To have a woman stand in the Person of Christ would not only not allow this deep theological truth to be realized during the serving of the Divine Liturgy but would also confuse Who is actually offering the unbloddy sacrifice that re-presents the Saving Action of Calvary and the subsequent renewal of the whole world by the Resurrection.

The Divine Liturgy is not some simple communion service that we just do because it is either tradition or because of habit. It is the opening into eternity where time, space, distance, and eternity become one before the Face of the Father: we are transported to the Last Supper, to Calvary, to the empty Tomb, to the Ascension, and we await His Coming as it is realized in our own time by the carrying of the Chalice to the People of God for their nourishment and growth in holiness. It can become that simple communion service when we throw out all the underlying layers of truth that the Church has recognized as she has meditated on just what profound action this is over the centuries. Protestantism has done that.

For myself, whether anyone of my Orthodox brethren agree with the way it is done, I'm glad that Pope John Paul II of blessed memory settled this matter for those in his communion and made it a matter of faith that must be believed from the point of his judgment onward.

In Christ,

BOB

There was a story the Bishop Sheen told about a painter that painted a very poor portrait of Pope Leo XIII. The painter asked the Pontiff to sign it. To which Pope Leo signed: Noli timere, ego sum!

Three points:

(1) I think this debate has gotten way off course. The original post was about women claiming that they were female priests in the Catholic Church. Clearly, that is ridiculous because, clearly, the Catholic Church (and the Orthodox Church) do not ordain women.

(2) Therefore, those who believe most strongly in female ordination should probably go to a denomination where that is allowed. They can be ordained there, and they can get on with the business of serving God and neighbor (which is the whole point of the clergy).

(3). Hence, I find it pointless and pathetic that most of the posts in this thread have (over six pages!) opined that female ordination is wrong. It's pointless because the matter is settled in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches: they don't ordain women to the clergy. It's pathetic because the only use that I can see for this is to give a satisfying emotional release in proclaiming allegiance to the official view.

In other words, I think issues like this are used by conservatives and liberals alike to identify themselves (in an almost tribal, totemic way) rather than for the issues themselves. (That counts, in my opinion, for issues like female ordination, gay relationships, abortion, ecology, charitable works, etc.) People can get really upset when that is pointed out -- so, flame away. But consider: wouldn't it have been more productive to discuss (over 6 pages!) how to help people discern their place in the Body of Christ, based upon their beliefs, rather than beating the drum of condemning female ordination?

-- John

But it is good to reconcile our own hearts and minds to what is undebatable as Church teaching if we privately disagree. And that takes discussion.

Women could not be ordained in those places if the people there hadn't followed their conscience and stood up for what's right.

John,

with all due respect, I could not disagree with you more (I am not picking on you in particular here either).

I think we should know why we believe something. I do not think that it is a mature adult faith that can ask no questions and cannot tolerate any questions from others.

We in the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church do not ordain women because we believe it is an apostolic doctrine to have only males serve as presbyters and Bishops, and to offer the Holy Sacrifice. But we should be able to give reasons to outsiders and for those within our faith who question it.

It can appear from the surface that we simply believe men are superior which is not the case. But for people who do not understand holy tradition it can certainly appear that way. Women could only vote in this country since 1922. We need to have some understanding, I think, about questions people may have.

And frankly, some of the church fathers had some very negative, disparaging views of women, that I would be ashamed to share with an unbeliever (there are some coarse references to women's cycles by fathers such as Jerome). I can understand why some people feel the all male priesthood is a social construct.

We are so cavalier sometimes, we need to speak the truth in love.

We have to be faithful to Apostolic tradition. Apostolic Churches are never going to ordain women. We needn't be ashamed of it. And we need to defend what we believe.

But I think it is appropriate to talk about what we believe and why we believe. The Church gives reasons for the male priesthood, I do not perceive the Church as saying simply "because we say so," like some parent that needs to get tough with their kids.

We should be able to convey concepts like in persona Christi, and affirm the important places women do have in our churches.

Since being Byzantine, I have enjoyed sharing with my evangelical friends the role of the Presbytera. They can understand that.

Blessings,

Lance

It is an important part of the Liturgy of the Word and can also enlighten the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Not all the mass(liturgy) is Liturgy of the Eucharist as important and vital it is. There are two entrances (processions) the Little Entrance (for the liturgy of the Word-now more obvious in the West) and the Great Entrance (for the liturgy of the Eucharist-the presentation of the gifts in the West)

I highly recommend a talk by Peter Kreeft on priestesses
http://www.peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm
Women and the Priesthood -- Why "only boys can be the daddies.
and his article on sexual symbolism
http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/sexual-symbolism.htm
From his new book the philosophy of Jesus

Alone among the ancient gods, the Jewish God was always "He," never "She" (or "It" or "They" or Hermaphrodite). For "She" symbolized something immanent, while "He" was transcendent. "She" was the Womb of all things, the cosmic Mother, but "He" was other than Mother Earth. He created the earth, and He came into it from without, as a man comes into a woman. he impregnated nonbeing with being, darkness with light, dead matter with life, history with miracles, minds with revelations, His chosen people with prophets, and souls with salvation. He was transcendent.

That is why only Judaism, of all ancient religions, had no goddesses and no priestesses. For priests are representatives and symbols of gods. Priests mediate not only Man to God but also God to Man. Women can represent Man to God as well as men can, for women are equally human, valuable, good, and pious. But women cannot represent this God to Man, for God is not our Mother but our Father. Earth is our Mother.

Dr. Eric,

I love these anecdotes about the human, and especially humorous, side of the Popes -- and the saints. Thanks.

You've probably heard this one.... Pope John XXIII was asked in a press conference by an American journalist: "Your Holiness, how many people work in the Vatican?"

After a second's reflection, the Pope responded: "emmmm, maybe half".

Michael

The word "right" is a debatable term in this context. But, I agree with the rest of your post. Certain churches allowed female ordination because some of their members agitated for it.

However, I don't think that will work in the Catholic Church (because power is invested in an all-male hierarchy). Likewise for the Orthodox Churchy (ditto). Also, many of the people as well as the clergy in those churches don't want female ordination, and they don't want democracy in their churches. Instead, a lot of the people in those churches like things as they are.

So, that is why I stressed respecting the traditions of the various denominations. There are denominations which are more open to change and democratic structure; and there are others which aren't; and I think those differences should be respected.

My two cents' worth.

-- John

Lance,

I know, and I welcome the opportunity to share our different views.


I agree. However, female ordination has been discussed thoroughly before. Also, this topic was (I thought) different. I thought it was about the futility of people claiming that women had been ordained in the Catholic Church, when that is impossible. In other words, I thought the topic was about respecting (or, in this case, disrespecting) the tradition of particular churches.


Well, I personally don't believe that. But, I don't believe certain other official teachings of either Church as well. Instead, I (like many others) are private dissenters over certain matters. We normally keep our views to ourselves, and we stay with one church or another because there are more things about that we like than what we dislike.

Hence, for people like me, a discussion of female ordination in Catholicism or Orthodoxy is an exercise in futility. The official teaching and its explanation are not going to change because of my opinion or anyone else's opinion. And that is because authority in those churches is from the top down. And that is ok in those churches because that is part of what defines them. So, if such a discussion helps some believers to better understand their beliefs, then good for them. But for me and people like me, who don't believe the official view, there is a simple choice: find a way to deal with it (by privately disagreeing) or, if it is truly very important to a person, by going to a church where female ordination is allowed.

Just my two cents' worth.

-- John

As a woman, I always understood the role of God and Jesus as 'Father', and thus, have accepted the clergy as representatives of the Fatherhood of God in His Church.

I think that this topic has been sufficiently addressed from both sides, and I thank posters for their erudite and various viewpoints, but I won't lock it incase anyone wants to add anything more to the discussion.

Alice, Moderator

I should have said "for what they believe is right", though of course I do believe they are right.

I agree, Alice, with your position.

If anyone is looking for resources on this, I would recommend four excellent texts:

1. Louis Bouyer's Woman in the Church, published by Ignatius Press.

2. Manfred Hauke's Women in the Priesthood? A Systematic Analysis in the Light of the Order of Creation and Redemption, also published by Ignatius Press.

3. William Oddie's What Will Happen to God?: Feminism and the Reconstruction of Christian Belief also published by Ignatius.

4. Thomas Hopko's (ed.) Women and the Priesthood published by SVS.

The problem is that in general we have lost the iconic significance of gender, as well as paternity and maternity. The redemption of Christ in the temporal mission of the Church does not somehow eliminate the significance of these things. Rather it elevates them sacramentally to a supernatural level. If we embrace the radical feminist construct of "gender neutrality" and "power relations", we are seeing the Church through secular, worldly eyes - a society or worse yet, a corporate entity or organization where male priests are in charge and have all the power. (Unfortunately, some clergy see themselves this way, which only perpetuates the difficulty people have. I relate it to their own experience and understanding of fatherhood.) Rather, we should see it through a familial model, which is based on Genesis. Both men and women are equal, yet complimentary in their roles within the Church. And the ministerial priesthood images fatherhood, ergo it is reserved to men.

I think it is also useful to understand how radical a break Christianity made with its Jewish heritage when it introduced women into the "nave". Within Judaism, it was never regarded as essential for women to be present at either the synagogue services (the Sacrifice of the Word) or the Temple Sacrifices. Very often, they were separated in the back from the men. (I visited an Orthodox Jewish synagogue years ago with a friend, and this was still the practice there.)

Christianity, specifically the Church, saw both women and men as particiating in the common royal priesthood of baptism, and so they were both to be in the nave offering the sacrifice of praise according to their ordo. As the Church expanded into Greek missionary territory, it had ample opportunity to establish a female presbyterate, since the Greeks HAD (and in fact expected to have) female priests. But the Church did no such thing. This was not a simple slavish nod to their Jewish heritage, IMHO, rather it was something far more systemic, related to the will of Christ and apostolic mission of fatherhood and the Church's maternal mission.

God bless,

Gordo

John,

I made a huge mistake; I did not mean to say "We in the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church do not ordain women because we believe it is an apostolic doctrine;"

I meant to say: "We in the Catholic Church and Orthodox Church do ordain women because we believe it is an apostolic doctrine;"

I did not mean to insert the Not!

One can see from my previous post that I do believe male-only priest hood is apostolic.

I am so frustrated seeing my quote. It totally changes what I meant to say.

I am sympathetic to the idea of female priests. But I accept the apostolic teaching. See my post below; I have a similar thought to John on these kind of matters.

I hope my friends in the Byzcath forum know I am not so stupid about a basic Apostolic teaching.


Lance