www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Church

In the East-N-West Forum, in the thread called The Roman Catholic Church is not the One True Church, the following was just written:

There is one true Church.

Nothing is more important than this Church.

Most Christians will agree that God should be our first priority � family our second. The Church is both. Nothing is more important than the Church.

�God is more important,� some will protest. God and the Church are one. To say that God is more important than the Church is like saying that a husband is more important than his wife. In truth, a husband is the head of his wife, but she is not his inferior. It is in the same way that Christ is the head of His Church (cf. Eph. 5:23). Only through the Church can you come to Christ.

�You�re idolizing a man-made institution,� others will accuse. The God-Man made the Church. His Body is the Church (cf. Col. 1:24). The Body of Jesus Christ is no idol.

The Church is God and family. It is God�s family. The Church makes bold to call God, �Father,� � even, �Abba� (Gal. 4:6). The Church is the children of God. The Church is God�s Son � Jesus, the Son of God. The Church is the Mystical Body of Jesus. As God the Son is to God the Father, so the Church is to God. The Church and God are one.

The Church is the Bride of Christ. As in marriage, the two are made one (cf. Eph. 5: 31- 32).

What is this Church? It is not the guy in the next pew � nor myself, a sinner. It is not the priest, nor the bishop, nor the pope. I do not worship men. It is not the saints nor the angels that I worship. I do not worship flesh and blood, but the awesome God. But this God I worship is in the angels and the saints. He is in men. He is in the pope, the bishop, and the priest. He is in the guy in the next pew. And He is in me, a sinner. And all these are in God, too.

God is in the Church and the Church is in God. �There is no salvation outside the Church" -St. Cyprian.

Both Orthodoxy and Catholicism are wrong in their own ways in this regard.

Please explain!

There is a saying (to paraphrase) that a nation is a group of people who share the same mistaken view of history, i.e. who accept a common mythology. Same idea.

AMM,

It is possible that our views are not as divergent as it seems to me. Your statement quoted above, to my way of thinking, is a direct contradiction to the teachings of the Church contained in the Nicene Creed. Do you confess the Nicene Creed? I find it quite possible to proclaim that there is one true Church at every Divine Liturgy. "I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church." I will grant that the word "true" is not used, but it is implicit in "holy, catholic, and apostolic." What, specifically, strikes you as impossible?

Is it impossible that the Church is one?
Is it impossible that the Church is true?
Is it impossible that there is a Church at all?

And what are we to say of St. Paul's characterization of the Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15) if it is not True?

Perhaps, to pick up on a theme in John's prior post, the Church is the guardian of truth and is the expression of the truth at every true Liturgy. In each Liturgy, the Church is present whole and entire in the local church and that is where the truth is found.

Joe

The church sometimes gets things wrong.

For example???

Perhaps you are confusing the Church with Her poor representatives?

The true church claim.

How so???

At some point the unattached person coming upon Christianity must contend with a plethora of groups and institutions claiming to speak for Jesus Christ. There must be one in the group that can claim to have been founded by Jesus Christ and to speak authoritatively for Him.

Since the schism both the Latin Church and those in communion with her have maintained that she and she alone have maintained that unbroken continuity from the founding to the present. The Orthodox Church sees herself in the same position since that fateful time. While it may be a point of contest, one Church should be able to make this claim for the world and make its case both historically and theologically. Notice that no Protestant group makes this claim and has tried to substitute the idea that the Church is actually "invisible" and has no external organization that transcends cultures.

The point behind it all, however, goes to Jesus' promise to be with His Church "to the end of the age." If that promise cannot apply to one particular Church, then He lied to us. I don't thnik any Christian of any stripe would admit to that one.

This is a problem and always brings out the worst in the contenders. How this Gordian Knot is unraveled only God knows.

In Christ,

BOB

There are multiple churches which claim to be the true church and contain the fullness of faith. Either one is right and the others wrong in their understanding of themselves, or they are all wrong in some way. I think they are all wrong in some way as far as this topic goes. Maybe there does have to be "one" church, but what that church is may be beyond our ability to define or understand.

The various founding mythologies about the one true church claims are just the other side of the coin. This is of course only one area you can find errors, mistatements, reversals, inconsistencies, etc.

The church, or churches, however you want to view it, sometimes gets things wrong. It's a reality we either blindly attempt to justify, a paradox we live with, something we ignore, or something we just reject. Very much like the Bible itself.

I agree with you.

-- John

Bob, I just don't believe that. I say that with respect: to you as a person and with respect for your belief that I simply do not share. There are so many groups within Christianity; and so many of them have apostolic claims (Catholics, Anglicans, Orthodox, non-Chalcedonians, etc. and their various subparts); yet they are all different and have developed along their own lines. Furthermore, I don't believe that an unbroken apostolic lineage in the clergy is necessary to be the Church: there are plenty of Protestants who believe in Christ and follow Him. In sum, I believe that the Church is Jesus Christ and all who are united to Him; and within the Church there are many branches.

-- John