www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Ukrainian Orthodox revised liturgy?

My OCA parish had a joint celebration vesperal liturgy with the Ukrainian Orthodox parish right around the corner from us last night, for the exaltation of the cross.

I was shocked twice. Once before communion, when the priest said "Holy gifts for holy people" The other came at the final blessing when we heard "For he is good and loves humanity."

I wonder if the RDL was borrowed from this? Can any other Ukrainian Orthodox here verify if this is in your books?

Any takers?

I just want to know if this is unique to the parish I attended, or if this is how all Ukrainian Orthodox books are worded.

If this is how it is, I'm glad I'm in the OCA.

I am Ukrainian Orthodox of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada. First of all our parish church would never celebrate a vesperal liturgy and especially never with the OCA which is very Russian in Toronto. Although we get along very well with the ROCOR and there are families with members in both parishes. The OCA does participate in the Sunday of Orthodoxy along with other Orthodox jurisdictions in Toronto. Our hierarch is Archbishop of Toronto and Eastern Canada.

We do not celebrate in English although when I visited the Dauphin Ukrainian Festival out West I was told that in some parishes in Western Canada the Gospel, Espistle, Lord's Prayer and Sermon are in English and Ukrainian.
In my prayer book "Vira Faith", 3rd edition 1979, the citation you provided is not included.
So you can't blame us.

I have been looking around the house for service books from the UOC of the USA. But none of the ones I own have any English in them.
I suspect however, since, the Ukrainian Orthodox in North America, are under the EP, that you consult English versions of the Greek Archdiocese of North America. I think we would use their English translations if needed.
But I have never seen or heard the 2 quotes in English you gave.

Vesperal liturgies are allowed by the Bishop. They are only used on the eve of a feast, if there can be no services on the actual feast day for a certain reason.

An example being our priest has a secular full time day job, therefore can't offer liturgy the morning of the feast.

I agree with Miller, as I have never heard those phrases used in any English liturgical celebrations I have witnessed with the Ukrainian Orthodox.

I would also add that Bishop Tikhon of the OCA does not look kindly at "vesperal liturgies", so the consensus even amongst the OCA hierarchy is mixed.

The consensus might be mixed among the OCA bishops, but it is still allowed by mine. It would take a synod to have a churchwide decision on the issue of vesperal liturgies, but apparently things are okay the way they are.

I suppose that depends on your particular church and bishop:
http://www.holy-trinity.org/liturgics/tikhon.lit3.html

"...neither I nor any other ruling bishop of the Diocese of the West has authorized the serving of the Evening Vesperal Liturgy anywhere or anytime in the Diocese of the West."

From His Grace +Isaiah of Denver in Diocesan News For Clergy and Laity:

Would someone please explain to me the issue regarding "Holy gifts for the holy" vs "Holy gifts for the holy people" vs "Holy gifts for the holy people of God"? I've heard it all three ways in both Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox Churches and never thought much of it.

It's an obsession with liturgical correctness.

I don't think it is an 'obsession' to ask for accurate translations. We need, and want, translations that are careful, accurate, exact, faithful, and prayerful. Without interpolations, interpretations, abbreviations, or agendas.

If is 'obsession' then it is ironic that it is the same thing asked for by John Paul II in a sober and clear directive from Rome.

If it is 'obsession', then so be it. But it is not an unreasonable request.

Nick

As I said before Diak, It would take an OCA synod to put this baby to bed. I'm not a fan of vesperal liturgies, but if it's allowed by my Vladyka, well I wont lose sleep over it. The good thing is you'll NEVER see this on Saturday evenings in the OCA.(BCC anyone?) Long live Vespers! Dobre Notc

Nicholas, if the liturgy was done "right" and there were only ten people on average there to participate in it, I think some people would be okay with that.

That to my mind is an obsession with liturgical correctness.

So it is all about numbers?

Well, fine. Is there any evidence that this revised, abbreviated, dumbed-down, reorganized and agenda driven 'exclusive' Liturgy has increased attendance in even one parish? Is there any evidence that this new music has led to better singing in even one parish! Please, name one parish that is growing, because of this terrible book. Name one parish with growth and better singing, just one, and I will reconsider.

I can name many that have lost families because of this fiasco. People have been hurt, and their pain is belittled by those in authority. Letters haven't been answered, and people have been treated as if they are expendible.

That is 'obsession' with agendas and ideologies, and the mistaken belief that pet opinions and theories are more important than people.

It is that kind of 'obsession' that has driven our bishops to impose this terrible book on their people.

It is sad.

Nick

The UOC-USA published a bilingual English-Ukrainian prayerbook in the late 1990s or early 2000s. Maybe someone on the Forum has a copy and can review their translations for these particular lines.

Dave