The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
EasternChristian19, James OConnor, biblicalhope, Ishmael, bluecollardpink
6,161 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (EastCatholic, Fr. Deacon Lance), 932 guests, and 97 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,511
Posts417,517
Members6,161
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 107
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 107
I am in a discussion with a protestant who ignores the six times that Jesus says in John 6 that we must eat his flesh.
She focuses in on the verse where Jesus says that the flesh is of no worth and the spirit gives life.
How can I show her that "the flesh" in this verse doesn't refer to "his flesh" which we must eat to have life?

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
Perhaps show the parallel with John 3? "The flesh" means worldly understanding. The "Spirit" means seeing with the eyes of faith.

Joe

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 571
Member
Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 571
As Joe mentions, the word "flesh" is not being used univocally by Our Lord. In one case, he means his flesh literally; in the other, he is speaking about flesh as a principle of self-direction/preservation, somewhat as St. Paul does in Romans 5?

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
Yes, and also the fact that Christ makes a big deal out of not only eating his flesh but drinking his blood. If that isn't a Eucharistic reference, then I don't know what is. If Christ only meant his flesh metaphorically, then why would he bother to talk about eating and drinking? Also, the Gospel of John has no institution narrative and most biblical scholars think that this means that John is more subtly including it in John 6.

Joe

Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 107
M
Member
Member
M Offline
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 107
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Perhaps show the parallel with John 3? "The flesh" means worldly understanding. The "Spirit" means seeing with the eyes of faith.

Joe
I agree with your analysis.
Do you know of anywhere that this distinction is explained?

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 571
Member
Member
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 571
Melkiteman,

JPII's Theology of the Body has a long analysis of the play between "Spirit" and "flesh" in Paul, 1 John, et al., which is very well done.

He doesn't distinguish meaning from John 6. I have found the notes in the New Jerusalem Bible to be helpful as a guide to the various meanings of "flesh" and "spirit".

Michael

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Member
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
I remember going over this passage in a Protestant bible class. We were told that the scripture was literal up to that point, and then it was figurative, and then literal again once that imagery had ended. They said this, but there is no break in the narrative which would support such a shift. That is one of the reasons I get slightly bothered by the "picking" done by those who read too much into the verse separations; at times the natural flow of the narrative is broken by a verse, and that can be missed if the book is not read carefully.

Though, it may be a matter out of our hands, and it will be by grace that such a person can see.

You may be able to add support by showing passages in the epistles which reference the breaking of bread and framing the importance historically (they may not accept a reference to the apostolic Fathers, but that would help there if they did). You may also allude to the repeating imagery of bread, from the manna to the Bread of Life.

Terry

Last edited by Terry Bohannon; 09/28/07 12:59 PM. Reason: Added the "picking" sentence.
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Member
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life. I am the bread of life. Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. This is the bread that comes down from heaven, so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh."

From how this passage would be seen in that class I took, one would have to accuse Jesus Christ of equivocation since he shifts the meaning of "bread" from one point to another as it is literal in one of the cases and figurative in the next.

Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,518
Catholic Gyoza
Member
Catholic Gyoza
Member
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,518
Lets remember that in the Gospel, Our Lord changes the verb for eating from a proper eating verb (High Tea with the Queen) to a more crude eating verb (pigs in a trough.) Just to make sure everyone gets the idea.



Moderated by  theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0