www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Democratic Candidates OK With Gay Stories For 2nd Graders

Terry:

Do you deny Joe's claims that there is a history of the persecution of the mentally ill based upon an inadequate understanding of mental illness? Also, could you please explain exactly which a priori assumptions of Joe's you are rejecting-because I'm not quite as certain as you seem to be as to exactly what Joe's assumptions are.

Ryan

"In St. Paul's day, they thought that mentally ill folk were either demon possessed or were demons themselves, witches and sorcerers."

He is implying that the demonic possessions as accounted in scripture was the result of bad science, or ignorance. I disagree with that point, I've seen it rise up in modern commentaries. I would say that those cases are unknowable to us and that those arguments are projections of modern methodologies and understandings of social science and natural science in the interpretation of the gospel.

Why stop there? It would be as reasonable, to that method of interpretation, to question the resurrection or the virgin birth.

There are areas where modern methods of biblical scholarship can help us understand scripture, but many more where it can lead to confusion and doubt. That interpretation of the biblical account of demonic possession is a question which a materialist (non-metaphysical) scholar cannot address.

Terry

"Remember, homosexuals are people too and they do have real feelings. Whether or not a person agrees with homosexuality as a lifestyle or practice, we owe homosexual persons respect, the same way we owe anyone respect."

In no way does their sinful behavior and culture (let's not forget about some of the public orgies at pride events) mitigate their personhood. Even if they may try to frame the debate to their favor, their personhood is not in question when same-sex relations is discriminated against as something to avoid if we are to honor God.

There are schools which have read Heather Has Two Mommies and similar material to their students. The issue at hand is whether or not such material should be nationally issued. That is a completely different topic, and one which should be intolerable to parents.

Terry

Getting back to the original topic. Does anyone believe that Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and John Edwards will lose votes over these recent statements ? My own belief is that if they lose any votes over this, the numbers will be negligible. I see it as rather like the Anglican Church. You support them because you agree with them on the issues, and nothing they do is shocking.

Now really, what else would you expect from these degenerates!
Stephanos I

Alice,

Not surprisingly, I'm with you 110% on this one.

The purpose here is to diminsh the "shock" of homosexual behavior by placing it in the context of fairy tales, a familiar medium for children where it has traditionally been used to teach virtues.

This is nothing short of perverse and abusive to these second graders and the sacred trust given by parents to educators. I say this as a parent and a primary educator of my children and as a Christian. How could either of these commitments (parenting and Christian) lead to a different position?

Sorry fellas, but the idea that this is a social justice issue analogous to the struggles for justice for Blacks and Native Americans or the mentally ill is IMHO insulting to those who suffered through those injustices. It is nothing short of pure nonsense which has been spoon fed to our culture by the liberal media and socially liberal advocacy groups.

I say this as one who has worked for years with homosexuals in a diverse corporate environment. I have had a lesbian for a boss and several other homosexuals as direct colleagues in various organizations/companies. I have personally treated them no differently than my heterosexual colleagues; that is, with the personal esteem and professional respect they deserve as people and colleagues, which is quite high IMHO. My parents were (and are) deeply conservative and they find homosexual behavior abhorrent. They find it abhorrent because all human beings are made in the image and likeness of God and this type of behavior is nothing short of debasing - it is below human dignity. So clarity around virtue and vice can lead one to a proper tolerance that does not compromise on values, but rather respects and values the image and likeness of God in every neighbor while praying and hoping that someday they the courage to experience the freedom and blessing of the authentic dignity they have been given.

Supporting a gay social agenda through fairy tales that attempt to make it legitimate as an alternative lifestyle accomplishes none of this.

In ICXC,

Gordo

Father,

I must do some thinking. It seems that it could be that I may not really be a true Christian, but rather a degenerate. As each day passes, I find myself beginning to question more and more the moral and social orthodoxy of the faith. Perhaps I am really an unbeliever. Pray for me. I once had a close friend warn me not to get too educated, because it would destroy my soul. Perhaps he was right. Or as my mother sometimes says, "many people educate themselves out of the kingdom of God."
But, if advocating moral neutrality in the public sphere on this issue is apostasy, then I am afraid I am doomed.

Joe

Gordo:

I believe you when you say that always treat those you know to be homosexuals with respect. However, I also think that there are many instances in which people who are homosexuals have been very badly by others exactly because they are homosexual. I do not base this opinion on having been "spoon fed" anything. I base it on my direct observations. What is unfortunate about this is that the hypocrisy of those who condemn others, while ignoring their own sins, probably has the effect of emboldening those whose sins they condemn. As someone with gay family members and a former gay roommate who is a very good friend, I despair at the attitudes held towards homosexuals by some who call themselves Christians, and the way in which it drives them away from the Church and the Gospel.

Ryan

Whom are you calling "degenerates"?

Ryan

Not to pick on the sin of homo-sexuality, but let's be real and admit that ALL para-marital sexuality is being pushed and shoved down our throats here AND abroad as natural, normal, and EXPECTED....and because of that STRONG message, it is increasingly impossible for unmarried Christians to live, or even WANT to live a chaste life.... IS this right, is this 'compassionate', is this in the best interest of individuals' ultimate health and well being, not to mention their ultimate salvation?!?!?!?

I will concede that condoning homosexuality is not the problem, but that it is just a PART of a problem that allows for what may have been unthinkable behaviour (and this includes today's casual heterosexual sex) in the not so distant past, to be acceptable.

The human mind and will are weak, and societal norms and mores of what is and what is not acceptable, have been in place throughout history for a reason. Granted, they were not always right, (case in point: condoning or turning away one's eyes from male promiscuity and *extra marital* affairs (*in Latin and Mediterranean countries*) )but what they show is how society, through its mass influence, can keep in check those base passions, which we know are sinful and detrimental to us.

When something is presented as natural to us by our society, the allure of it, and the desire for it, can become great to individual people.

Alice

Dear Alice:

I find myself in basic agreement with what you're saying here.

Here's what I find to be problematic about much of the history of the attitudes many Christians take towards sexual sins. Too many Christians reserve particularly harsh judgment towards the sin of homosexuality, while basically winking at other sexual sins. Then there is the issue of attitudes towards sexual sins versus other sorts of sins. There has also been a group that seems not to discriminate with respect to sexual sins-they are equal-opportunity judgers of those who engage in any form of sexual sin, but they may ignore the ill effects of other sorts of sins. Yes, sexual sins are indeed "sinful and detrimental to us." So are gossip, greed, envy, jealousy, hatred, refusal to forgive, exploitation of the poor, racism, and sexism. All of these sins I have just name are offensive to God, beneath the dignity of creatures made in the image of God, very destructive of our society, and contrary to our nature as social beings called to live in communion with God and each other. In my opinion, they are no less destructive than sexual sins. Yet it is sometimes the case that some of those who seem to take great joy in condemning sexual sins turn a blind eye to these sins, and may themselves be guilty of having committed many of these sins. Such hypocrisy is itself a grave sin, emboldens people to continue in their own sins, and hinders the Church's task of spreading the Gospel.

Ryan

Joe,

I can somewhat sympathize with your position here (not that getting too educated is a problem is for me). I think what happens to a certain extent is that we begin to look at sin in a secular context of whether the sin causes visible harm to the individuals involved. Sometimes there is a tendancy to think sexual sins aren't of the same nature because when two people engage in homosexual sex or pre-marital sex they aren't really "hurting" someone else. I sometimes find myself wondering what is the sin of homosexual sex. At that point I generally place my trust in the Church and try to conform my view to that of the Church.

The hardest thing I always wrestle with is if there are sins that separate us from God even if I don't understand why they separate us from God? Homosexuality would be one that I guess is argued is not within the natural order and so it separates us from God. Pre-marital sex is outside the sacrament of marriage so that is an offense to God as well. While neither "hurt" any of the individuals involved, they are outside of what God has instituted. There comes a time when I guess I cannot allow my "intellect" to run the show and I put my trust and faith to what the Church teaches and not to what I "know" or think. That's the hardest thing because we view ourselves as rational and intelligent so when our views don't sync up with our Church's, we struggle to bring our views in line.

Anyway, as to what is the appropriate course of action within our secular society, I'm tending towards your view. We don't live in a Christian country any longer (in part because it's hard to reach a consensus definition of what is a "Christian" now). As such, it's almost better to attempt to form an amoral country as opposed to one that allows our "moral" teachings and also someone else's "immoral" ones. We can still teach our morals at home and in our churches. Don't lose faith in yourself. I'll agree it can be hard and sometimes I wish I had been given a gift of "blind faith," but I am where I am. I think there is some passage in the Bible somewhere about God will give you the gift of faith if you seek it. I've only been seeking it earnestly for about six years. Hopefully it will come some day. Hopefully I'll recognize it as well. In the meantime, I do what I can to stay on the right track. You don't seem to have the same problems as myself, but rather an issue with conforming your views to your Church. I hope you can find a peaceful resolution to that issue as I know the difficulties and feelings it can create.

t-bone

That is only one example. What about single parents? Divorce? Working mothers? Do we hide these from our kids (because at one time I'm sure people would have said the sky was falling if we talked about those in school)? The language of sin and an understanding of these issues based on the Bible won't go anywhere in the public schools. The latter themselves have been used to justify positions we now consider reprehensible. The morals of society shift, as parents we have the responsibility and option to:

- Request our kids not participate in classroom events if they make us uncomfortable.
- Teach morality at home.
- Send them to private school.

I have no idea what the materials in question are like, but I don't think the assumption can be made they delve any deeper in to issues of human sexuality than a book talking about a normal couple with kids.

Ryan,

I'm going to agree with you on the litany of other sins that are damaging to people and society as well. I imagine you understand that it is easy for people to condemn sins that they know they won't commit themselves so to condemn homosexuality is easy. As to some of your other sins, like exploitation of the poor, most Christians would say you are correct in its sinfulness. However, the problem is not everyone would agree with what constitutes this sin. This is evident in that we can look and see two men having sex and say the act is objectively sinful, whereas, we don't always know when we are exploiting the poor.

I struggle with these issues of seeing others condemn people when they have plenty of sin in their own lives, but the thing I have really been trying to work on is to separate myself from condemning anyone. I always want to acknowledge my own shortcomings, but only if someone else acknowledges theirs. If I do wrong to someone who has wronged me, it's hard for me to apologize if they are smug and don't seek my forgiveness. But I have come to a point where I realize I cannot concern myself with how others act. I have an ideal I need to live up to regardless of whether others do the same. That is not to say that I cannot recognize objective sins that others commit, but I cannot use it as a reason to rationalize or justify my own. I understand what you are saying about when others persist in sin and condemn homosexuals, it can push homosexuals to want to continue in their sin. However this can be no rationale. (A side problem is that homosexuals probably don't often believe they are sinning.)

The real problem I think is that we lack the humility to acknowledge that we have shortcomings when others fail to do the same. I pray every night for humility because I think pride is the biggest stumbling block (to me) in living out the Gospel.

t-bone

t-bone, thank you. These comments are very helpful. BTW, I also have obsessive compulsive disorder and it doesn't help me in these struggles.

Joe