www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Democratic Candidates OK With Gay Stories For 2nd Graders

I agree that this is no rationale in the sense that it does not justify sin, or change the fact that sin is sin. However, it should be a rationale for Christians not to reserve particularly harsh judgment for those sins that they happen not to commit-and that was what my point was.

Ryan

Dear Ryan,

Good point!

Dear All,

It seems that we all react to the social issues which confront us today, from our unique particular experiences in life and with particular persons we have met...

If we all try to remember that in discussion, I think that we will find that we will all be able to agree with each other more than we ever thought we could!

Just my own thoughts...
,
Alice, your grateful Moderator

"The purpose here is to diminsh the "shock" of homosexual behavior by placing it in the context of fairy tales, a familiar medium for children where it has traditionally been used to teach virtues."

The words have been chosen carefully, I find it rather telling that they call the story of the two princes a "fairy tale". It has a double meaning.

Terry

Friends,

I want to say up-front that my views closely match those of Alice and Gordo in this discussion, both with respect to exposing children to matters of sexuality (should be parental responsibility) and regarding the respect due those with same-sex attraction (SSA), i.e., I support it.

In addition, however, I would add that I see no analogy between the "gay liberation movement" and the Black Civil Rights movement that culminated in the legislation of 1964-5. In the Civil Rights movement, the struggle was to have society recognize for blacks those civil rights accorded all human beings in our society, i.e., those pursuant to their natural rights, i.e., their God-given rights. That didn't involve much more than a healthy sense of "fairness" (justice). The "gay liberation movement" goes beyond that to require that the government "educate" us troglodytes to a more enlightened view of human nature itself. Thus our nature, which was the only "hermeneutic" necessary for recognizing the injustice of "separate but equal" is now itself attacked, in order to privilege the behavior and attitudes of a subset of that nature. Black folk didn't ask anyone to privilege their behavior and attitudes, just to respect their humanity.

The First Amendment specifies that it is constitutionally not the role of government to tell people what they should think. The "gay liberation movement" is a sign, not of a "post-Christian society" (an oxymoronic phrase, if there ever was one), but of a "post-American experiment society"; whereas the Civil Rights movement was an example of the proper functioning of that experiment.

Best,
Michael

Michael,

I agree that our society has no right to push their sexual agendas (hetero AND homo) on us and our children.

I can't tell you how upset and unsettled my son was as a pre-adolescent (it was either fifth or sixth grade), still a CHILD, when he was taught, in his school, (he went to a public and private (not religious private), so I can't honestly tell you which one it was--my memories are fuzzy lately-- about the particulars of practicing 'gay sex'.

I think that enough is enough, but the envelope keeps on getting pushed further. Fifteen years have passed since then....

I am okay with sexual education being taught in high school (mine was in my junior year), but that is the extent of it. Leave the morality and/or immorality, and beliefs of therein, to be taught by one's parents and schools should stay out of it from there.

Alice

The sort of public school (and some private schools as well) indoctrination into morals that run counter to the Gospel is just one reason why I would encourage parents who are able either to send their children to a private religious school (in some cases people may even consider Protestant schools as long as they are not hostile to apostolic Christianity) or consider home-schooling. We live in an increasingly secular society, and we are not going to be able to count on the public schools to provide moral training that is consistent with Christian teaching.

Ryan

Michael,

As far as I can tell, the term "post-Christian" is used by contemporary philosophers to indicate a shift of a way of seeing from the early 20th century to the 1950s and present. Their claims is that Christianity is no longer a shared reference point among a large populace.

The KJV shaped the use of the English language in poetry and literature because of how it influenced the Christian society of the English speaking peoples. The KJV was a shared reference point which then became a marker for that culture's evolution. The claim of a "post-Christian" society is that the markers which cultures visibly move by are no longer rooted in Christianity. To that, I would agree--though it's a stretch to call it a permanent mood, or that it indicates the irrelevancy of Christianity that some claim it does.

Terry

When I was in grade school, I knew that my best friend was adopted. He was from Africa, Nigeria I think. What I did not realize at the time, even after sleeping over a few times at his place, was that his adopted mother was a lesbian. It was only years later when I understood why she would have a bull whip in her room or why it was strange that her female friend would sleep on the couch when I came over. I had thought it strange at the time, and I asked about it. His mom evaded the question and I was satisfied at her answer. (That was in the fifth grade.)

Homosexuality would only have entered my mind if it was explicitly taught to me. I asked my dad about it and he just said it wasn't good to sleep over at that place.

Terry

Teachings kids about sex in school? Teaching kids about different forms of parenting (including single parenting and gay parenting) in school?

Yes, because these are realities of the (increasingly secular) world around us.



Teaching them about those kids of issues in the second grade ?

Ridiculous.




Indoctrinating little kids (second graders) with an ideology through the medium of fairy tales in public schools ?

Despicable.



There is an appropriate time and manner for teaching these things. Fairy tales in the second grade don't qualify.

-- John

To put a lighter note on this thread:

My daughter had just joined a new middle school, and they issued a directory of parents. (Westchester county, the northern suburban county of New York, may be home to many political liberals, ( ) including our most notable political residents, Bill and Hillary Clinton, but it is, never the less, still a haven for conservative, mainstream, family living, regardless of its residents' political and/or social idealogies....

Anyway, a Greek last name stood out to me, as most Greek-Americans like to look for other Greek-Americans by their last names (I know, I know--we are notorious for being a clanish bunch), but it also had two Greek male FIRST names for the parents. I pointed it out to my husband and laughed, saying, "well-I guess we are encountering our first gay parents, but gee wiz, did they have to be Greek?!?"

A few months later, we joined a new parish, who also issued a directory of members. Looking over the directory, I happened to see the 'gay' parents! "Oh dear, look, they are even members of our new church"! *eek*

Later on we met the first male of the 'couple' as he was a board member and a very, VERY conservative gentleman at that...hmmmm....

We were then introduced to his wife, who turned out to be unmistakably *female*, and whose first name was that 'male' name that we initially encountered in the school directory!!

I can't help but chuckle whenever I think of this story because you couldn't possible meet a more straight laced and conservative couple if you wanted to!!!! For that reason, and because they don't look the type to have much of a sense of humour, I have not told them about my initial impression of their 'marital status'.

Alice

Terry,

I hear you. But, I still think that American society in general "gets" the Christian keys embedded in our culture. It's the "chattering" classes that choose not to "get" them; when they are not downright "offended" by them. The only people who would never have been formed in Christian values are Jews to a small extant, immigrants who are not baptized, and Roman Catholic young people!

Best,
Michael

That is definitely the case in rural America (where I am far more comfortable). Perhaps I am led to agree because I'm an urbanite and because of the media (movies, TV, books), both of which seem to indicate otherwise.

Terry

Those who would promote a homosexual active lifestyle.
And Pleaaaaase lets not get all bent out of shape.
I know many friends who are homosexuals. That is not the issue.
The issue is trying to overthrow Christian Morality under the guise of being "tolerant".
I have no problem with homosexuals who struggle to live a virtuaous life. And am in full agreement with the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
"Point #1 "homosexual acts" are gravely disordered.
Point #2 they must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity

Every sign of unjust discrimination is their regard is to be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives, and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Homosexual persons are called to chastity (like everyone). By the virtues of self mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental greace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection."

This is a very charitable position and still it does not recognize sin as being ok.

T bone, I wouldnt really agree! There is no such thing as a sin that is private or harms only an individual or two people.
When one knows of the teaching of the mystical body of Christ, any kind of sin "harms" everyone.
Stephanos I

And, in fact, shows that the Church believes those saddled with the condition can rise to the same heights of sanctity as anyone else, if they correspond to God's grace, which He makes available to all.

Michael