www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News EWTN to air Ukrainian/Ruthenian Celebration

It was a magnificent service; I have started to watch it a second time. We will probably show it at our Church later.

While watching the celebration, I could not help but feel the loss of Fr. Pavlo Hayda...

Dear Asianpilgrim,

Your observations are very correct, especially concerning the rubrics. However, you should know that even when done in its entirety, the Hierarchical Service of the Ruthenian Recension (i.e. the books that the UGCC uses) has some differences from those of the Russian or Greek Orthodox.

At the same time, they certainly did not do what is written in those books. Ignoring them is to pay lip-service to the idea that what comes from Rome is important and should be listened to. To do the minimum at such an important event is a tragedy showing that our Church still lives with the misguided attitude of the '60s that to spend time in liturgical prayer that is beautiful, and reflects the Kingdom of Heaven to which we are raised at every Divine Liturgy, is a waste of time.

Sure, you may say that the Liturgy was 3 hours, but it looked like most of the people were confused about what was coming next and what to do. If you only "raise the bar" (which is what this was for most people) on the special occasions, then it will be chaos.

Take a place like Holy Trinity Monastery in Jordanville, NY. (Let's put aside their various problems and jurisdictional difficulties for now.) They have a bishop (Metropolitan Lavr) who lives there and when they serve the hierarchical liturgy, everyone knows what to do, no one is watching the clock, and, hopefully, even the protodeacons and servers responsible for all the details are able to pray. When they have bishops, priests, deacons, servers, singers, visitors or guests from their other eparchies, they simply join in with what is going on. The celebration thus becomes their common ascent to the Kingdom, so that when the Liturgy is over, it can be a true Liturgy and they can go out into the world with Love and Joy, and not ask questions like "what was that?" or "why do our books say one thing and we do something completely different?"

What I am trying to say in a really long-winded way is that if you constantly lower the bar, then sure people are going to think that it is wonderful when you raise it back up by an inch. (The same goes for the one-hour minimum of fasting before communion.) We've made the mistake of the West of codifying compromise and making it the norm. If we were simply to consistently maintain higher standards, with a proper pastoral attitude, this could all be avoided.

I timed the EWTN Broadcast and it didn't seem to be 3 hours; I had clocked some 2 hours and 40 minutes by the time I closed the TV in order to sleep. When I closed it, the DL had essentially ended, the hierarchs had gone out of the iconostasis, Patriarch Lubomyr had just finished leading "Many years" for Pope Benedict XVI and he himself was then being commemorated. Much of the DL was also taken up by the (bilingual) messages of a UGCC Bishop and of Patriarch Lubomyr. Without the messages it would have lasted much less than 2 hours, I think.

Of course, length has nothing to do with beauty. I've attended expertly-celebrated and reverent Tridentine Missa Cantatas that lasted only 50-55 minutes with a sermon thrown in. In fact, I have the impression that over-long liturgies are often due to sluggish or improper tempo than to "reverence". However, in the case of this Divine Liturgy we are discussing, the, er, relative shortness of the rite made me think that perhaps some things had been omitted from the Philadelphia liturgy, beautiful as it was. I did notice that at times there were silences -- silences that seemed rather awkward.

I am writing this while listening to a recording of -- guess what -- a hierarchical Divine Liturgy celebrated recently by ROCOR and Moscow Patriarchate hierarchs at San Francisco's ROCOR Cathedral. What astonished me -- coming so soon after having watched the UGCC hierarchical service in Philadelphia -- was the difference of it all. So far I've been listening for 2 hours and 10 minutes: exactly 1 hour and 50 minutes ALL of solid, uninterrupted singing and chanting, followed by a 20 minute sermon. Now the choir is singing again. I look at the MP3 meter and it seems I still have 40 minutes of listening ahead of me. I understand that after the Divine Liturgy, other relatively lengthy services were served. And -- I have to say this -- the atmosphere of prayer and the level of signing is on an entirely different level. This is seventh heaven on earth. I guess the Divine Liturgies in Moscow or Trinity Lavra are even more astounding (ninth heaven?).

I say this without meaning to disparage the Philadelphia liturgy, which was beautiful in its own right and far superior in so many ways to almost all Latin liturgies I could think of, even Tridentine ones. (And I'm Latin Catholic, don't forget.) As Fr. Zuhlsdorf has said: don't let the best become the enemy of the good.

This has been my question all along. Why the difference? And why the palpable difference in "feel", between Orthodox and Eastern Catholic liturgies, if one will assume that the ROCOR / MP and UGCC DLs I've referred to are the best that the respective sides could offer? The difference, frankly, disturbs me, because for me it has spiritual if not theological implications.... I really wish somebody could answer my perplexity, whether from the Orthodox or the Cathoics on this list.

Ok, I just finished listening to the ROCOR - MP Divine Liturgy. Without the ceremonial entry of the Metropolitan, it lasted a total of 2 hours 56 minutes, of which about 30 minutes were eaten up by two sermons and the rest by solid, uninterrupted and absolutely heavenly singing. I wonder where they get so much to sing, when they didn't sing slowly -- quite the opposite, in fact. Are there texts in the Russian Divine Liturgy that are not in other recensions? Sorry for sounding stupid, but I just have so many observations and I wnat to understand what these are.

How do I put this? In my opinion, it is a matter of accepting versus trying to understand. The Orthodox viewpoint is to raise Man to the level of God, whilst, there is a general tendency in the West to try to bring God down to the level of man. This is evidenced by the need, of some in the West , to have everything categorized, and dogmatized, and carefully cataloged and weighed out, almost like a scientific experiment. To those, the East can look chaotic, even anarchical, but to us, it is home. I think that in the case of the Eastern Catholics, the tendency of the hierarchs has been to attempt to mainstream an Eastern faith into a western context, abandoning those things which, to a western mind, mind, might seem strange or wearisome, while Traditional Orthodox prefer to Orthodoxisize the West into an Orthodox mindset, not particularly caring if the West looks askance at us.

By the same token, it is within my living memory, of Eastern Catholic services, especially those sung in Prostopenije by the Babushki, which reached the same heights of "not knowing whether we were in Heaven or on Earth" as the services you are currently listening to. It is a shame that the BCC decided to throw all that away.

Alexandr

A typical ROCOR hierarchal Liturgy is about 3 hours, not counting the vesting of the bishops. I don't believe that the different recensions are all that different, just that some of the hierarchs have seen fit to abbreviate portions or omit them altogether.

Alexandr

You are absolutely right Alex. I've never understood the need to be Catholic first, and Eastern second.

P.S., That sure looked like alot of precuts on the diskos during that liturgy!

LOL!! No precuts with us! I still shake my head in amazement at that "less than pious" practice! let us pray hat enough people care enough to raise such a stink that even their hierarchs will have to deal with it, and put an end to such, for lack of a better word, abominations.

Alexandr

Papal Message of Greeting to Ukrainian Bishops
Published: October 3, 2007

His Eminence, Tarcisio Cardinal Bertone, Secretary of State, has sent a message from His Holiness, Pope Benedict XVI, on the occasion of the celebration marking the centenary of the arrival of the first Ukrainian Eparch in the United States of America, due to take place in Philadelphia on 30 September, 2007

His Beatitude Cardinal Lubomyr Husar

Major Archbishop of Kyiv-Halyč




The Holy Father was pleased to be informed of the celebrations taking place in Philadelphia on 30 September 2007 to mark the centenary of the arrival of the first Ukrainian Eparch in the United States of America. His Holiness sends cordial greetings to Your Beatitude, to Metropolitan-Archbishop Stefan Soroka, to the members of the Holy Synod, and to all the beloved Ukrainian faithful in North America. He joins you in giving thanks to God for the courageous witness of faith shown by so many Ukrainian Catholics during the persecutions they endured in their homeland, and he rejoices that so many of them, having been forced to flee their homes, were able to find a welcoming Christian community of their own tradition in their new home in the West. At this time of thanksgiving for the blessings of the past hundred years, the Holy Father encourages the Ukrainian Catholic community in America to continue their efforts to promote the unity of all Christians, mindful of their special position as a bridge between the traditions of East and West (cf. Orientalium Ecclesiarum, 24). Commending all of you to the intercession of St. Josaphat, Bishop and Martyr, and invoking upon you the constant protection of the Mother of God, the Holy Father cordially imparts his Apostolic Blessing.

Summary of Cardinal Huzar's Homily at the 100th Anniversary Celebration Liturgy

Your Reverency, Your Excellency, Reverend Clergy, distinguished guests.

The Most Reverend Metropolitan Stefan of Philadelphia has already greeted all of you. He did it as a good host, he greeted all of you as guests to this festivity-solemnity of today. I do not wish to repeat his greeting, but still I would like to turn to you especially, although, if I may say so, from a different point of view.

One hundred years ago Bishop S. Ortynsky arrived in the United States to become the spiritual leader of those of Ukrainian origin who have come to the shores of the USA looking for freedom and for better life. His task, however, was two-fold. First, as I mentioned already, to establish ecclesiastical structure to organize ecclesiastical life for the immigrants from Ukraine to help them spiritually. But he also had a different task, to explain to his brother bishops of the Latin Rite, the local bishops here, who were these immigrants who, although they insisted that they were Catholics, had a different tradition, different culture, different liturgical rite, were so different in many ways. So different that it seemed impossible to integrate them into the American life. His task was also to explain who these people were.

When today, one hundred years later, we celebrate with you here, in this Cathedral, the higher representatives of the Latin Church in the United States, we see this not only as a gesture of friendliness, of fraternity, but we see this as a very concrete expression of that unity that exists today. When at the beginning one hundred years ago, and even a little more, there were misunderstandings, there were so many difficulties for the lack of mutual understanding, today, with the help of God, we are very content of who we are, what is our relationship, that we form one Church that, although we have different expressions, but form ultimately one universal Church. Your presence here today is a confirmation of this mutual understanding which exists today. Because the Catholic Church is one, notwithstanding the multiplicity of cultures, languages, peoples that form it. And the world needs the expression of this, and today here, in this church, in this Cathedral, we have this expression and this makes us very, very happy because understanding one another, respecting one another, supporting one another we can go ahead with the content of heart. We do not have to be afraid of anything. We are united, we are together, and this makes our looking into the second century full of hope, justified, well-grounded of. We thank you very much for your presence here today with us, and let us together go into the future. Slava Isusu Hrystu!
Taken from http://www.ukrarcheparchy.us

Where can one watch the Liturgy? Youtube?

-Paul

If a ROCOR hierarchical service lasts 3 hours without vesting, then that means either they are singing too slowly or they are ordaining one guy to every possible Order.

The recensions are not completely different, but there are still significant differences, such as the blessing after the Vesting (where the Galicians have exclamations by the bishop and Synodal usage has nothing), the blessing at the Small Entrance (where the Galicians insert the Prayer of the First Hour and the Synodalites say nothing), the order of the singing of the Trisagion (which is very different from that of Galician usage), the order of the Diptychs and "Vsikh i vsia", etc. Those are just the differences in the text and does not account for rubrical differences.

But eventhough there might be a difference in rubrics, this does not mean the spirit should be different or it has to look different. Thus, to answer Asianpilgrim's question, the difference is in the attitude with which one approaches the Divine Liturgy -- either with a common North American, Roman Catholic idea of Liturgy as the work of the people at the lowest common denominator, or with the belief that the people's (laos) work (ergon) [laos+ergon=leitourgia] raises them to the Kingdom (the highest common denominator).

I apologize to you if anyone here will be offended by my words.

(((((((((((((( STOP COMPLAINING ))))))))))))

Did you ever think of instead offering your gratitude to EWTN for airing this Divine Liturgy? This was a great opportunity to expose others to the beauty of the Byzantine Liturgy. This was a wonderful opportunity to show the world that this particular church forced into the underground by the communists re-emerged stronger for the challenges of the 21st century. And all that some can up with is that the liturgy wasn't done right?

Think about the logistics of getting 50-60 bishops here from all over the world including Patriarch Husar to Philadelphia. It would have been easier for their Synod to be held in Ukraine.

This anniversary was an important event in the life of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.

By offering our thanks, it just may pave the way for future televised events.

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Let us give thanks to Lord.

Ray

BRAVO Ray!
The belly-aching about "this should have been done and that should not have been done" is ridiculous. Reminds me of the saying that every parish has a complainer - " a noodnik" - who is rarely positive about anything.
Last Sunday's Centennial Divine Liturgy was absolutely glorious and history making. I've heard so many wonderful comments from Latin Rite Catholics as well as from Eastern Rite Catholics and Orthodox that the Liturgy was magnificent and that they learned so much from the commentator.
Thank you EWTN and thank you Ray for your post.
God Bless you!
Pavloosh