www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I like the changes to the Divine Liturgy, anybody else agree?

Switching "men to "us" and singing a different tune cannot whatsoever be compared to the enormus changes of the Roman Mass. That is like comparing the changes of a 2000 Ford F-150 and 2007 Ford F-150 with the changes of a 1944 B-17 and a 2007 F/A-22.

I am unfamiliar with this process, as I am a Latin Catholic.
Have you not been Chrismated before?

Congratulations Recluse and Welcome Home!!!

Chris

Usually, anyone who has had a trinitarian baptism,(Father,Son, and Holy Spirit,), and who wants to convert to Orthodoxy is received by Chrismation. It can vary by jurisdiction, and certain circumstances, but this is how it is usually done.

The person is not rebaptized, unless of course they were never baptized.

I, for one, am delighted with the new books. I'm a fairly recent convert (2 yrs.) with choral experience, and it is wonderful to have notes. Although the switch-over hasn't always been easy, most people have been good sports about it, and the congregation is following the music quite well. People are even following the changeable parts, in contrast to the previous noticeable reduction in volume whenever we would get to the troparion and kontakion. Sure, it would be wonderful if it all could be oral tradition like in the old days, but people move around a lot more and many of us are in small parishes located in distant West Coast cities and filled with people who didn't grow up Byzantine Catholic. Our pastor was instrumental in the development of the green book, and he is very knowledgeable and trustworthy.

Finally, I'm enough of a theologian that I switched to the Catholic Church, but I'm not so much of a theologian that I really care one way or the other about the inclusive language. I can understand the Creed, and so can my kids, and we can all sing it consistently. Right now, that's all that matters to me.

Welcome to the forum Gary.
Yes, the layout of the book is exemplary -- though I hear it's not easy to read by elderly -- specifically the red type is difficult for many, and some say it is too heavy to hold for the entire Divine Liturgy. But other than that, it's good.

Since you're new to the Byzantine Church, you may want to educate yourself on why this translation needs to be rescinded. Not only is it not true to our beloved full Ruthenian Recension, it contains many inaccuracies, including the inclusive language, which is not so inclusive. To begin, you may want to read more about the holes in this new Liturgy in the forum titled, "Books" which examines further Fr. Serge's deeper look into this translation.

Author: Serge Keleher

Title: Studies on the Byzantine Liturgy � 1
The Draft Translation: A Response to the Proposed Recasting of the Byzantine-Ruthenian Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom

Stauropegion Press
P.O. Box 11096
Pittsburgh, PA 15237-9998

Cost: $20 + $4 per book shipping & handling.

This book is a commentary on the proposed Revised Divine Liturgy according to the 12 October 2004 �final version�.

Since this book is relevant to the current discussion on the proposed revision of the Divine Liturgy I am creating this thread as a placeholder for specific discussions of the book


Have a nice day.

After talking with laity at the Mt. Macrina Pilgrimage (Otpust), there still are a number of parishes of the Ruthenian Metropolia who have yet to use the new RDL pew book.

Ungcsertezs

The Lord helps those who help themselves!

Tick Tock, Tick, Tock......... Get 'em while you still can! LOL!!

Alexandr

Interesting. I was speaking to someone who attended the Otpust. He told me that he spoke to at least 100 people and not one of them was pleased with the RDL. What does it all mean?

Don't know - but the congregational singing at the outdoor liturgies was certainly solid, and I heard hardly any confusion over the words of the ordinary parts of the Divine Liturgy; I had expected more. Some of the cantors were actually the only ones whose singing was noticeably off; at one Liturgy, cantors in the back row sang at least three different endings for Tone 5, and two of them said that was normal, and they hadn't bothered to use the new books yet.

Jeff

I would respectfully suggest that an individual who approached "at least 100 people" at this year's Uniontown Pilgrimage and asked the question: "Are you pleased with the Revised Divine Liturgy?" (or some derivation thereof) may not be the best source for an unbiased perspective on the subject.

You know, Cantor JFK, your post really cracks me up.

Who will the Bishop's believe if they won't believe the people in the pews or the people standing on the grass at Uniontown? Those are actual people whose worship has changed drastically in the past few months. Just because the majority of Byzantine Catholics are not in love with the RDL, doesn't make them biased. Opinionated, yes; biased no.

Maybe the Bishops need to return to the drawing board and give the Ruthenian's what they really need -- the FULL Ruthenian Recension, complete with Vesper, Matins, the Hours and all the liturgical practices that go along with these beautiful services.

Rip out the pews, install icon screens with curtains, etc. so that the true beauty of our beloved Byzantine Church can be experienced by ALL -- not just by those lucky enough to have a brave priest.

I agree that the full Byzantine liturgy according to the Typikon of the Great Church is wonderful. The reality is that this incarnation of the liturgy has been memorized by the people and has served during centuries of persecution when no books and few "utensils" were available. It kept not only the Church, but also the ethnicity of the people alive.

I recall stories of Ukrainians stealing away into the woods to have liturgy in the snow to avoid the police. No books needed -the people knew it all. The tradition was critical to the faith.

In our circumstances, with fully appointed churches with heat and air-conditioning and lights, it's different.

The essence of the true beauty lies in the peoples' collective participation with their priest. If the words get screwed up, or the melody is in the 'wrong' tone for that Sunday, it doesn't really matter. It's the people and the priest praying together.

Unfortunately many non-old-country Ruthenians or Easterns in the diaspora don't have a knowledge of the 'full' recension since so much of it got lost in the Slavic church's Latinizations/simplifications of the 20th century. Vespers is for Lent, maybe; Matins/Orthros? What's that? (Greeks behave as if we were all still in Greece.)

So, perhaps the "new" recension is a way to establish a fuller recognition of what the past reality was. The clear challenge is to have our priests and educators engage in a full-blown educational barrage of what the Byzantine church is really about - without scaring the community.

As for pews, who really cares? Just because our great-grandparents didn't have them, why should our use of them be a scandal? Same with electric lights. (Some ultra-traditionalist Orthodox rail against their use.) Greeks don't use curtains, so how holy can it be?

The essense of Byzantine Christianity is the spirituality revealed in the liturgical prayers and practices. Let's focus on those and leave the minor logistical practices alone.

Just a thought.

Blessings!

Dr John

So, it's primarly education.