www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I like the changes to the Divine Liturgy, anybody else agree?

A few thoughts about Dr. John's thoughts.


Regardless of how they "behave" I don't see the Greek parishes, at least in our general geographic area, closing or rapidly shrinking as I do the BCC.


A very similar charge was mounted in the Latin Church in the early 1970s. Now nearly forty years later, there is now much wider and more free use of the "extraordinary rite", or the older "full rescension", at least according to the 1962 Missal. And (absolutely no insult intended) it is precisely families younger than yourself and your generation that are flocking to that traditional rescension in the Latin Church.


While we cannot become obsessive about them, the externals do matter. The curtain certainly has its scriptural significance as well as its use through the received tradition. When accompanied by appropriate catechesis, renewal and restoration are very much possible, including use of the 1944 Ordo and the 1964 Liturgikon. As the Latin Church learned (and as did the Russians via the Old Ritualists), throwing out or forbidding use of the older rescension is not of itself a good thing under the banner of "renewal".

Amen my brother, Amen.

This is an interesting comment. Is the discontent caused by the revision, now recognized by the Hierarchs as a legitimate "crisis"?

Oh how I miss Father Elias and Aliquippa!

I, for one, would be much happier about the present state of things if Vespers and Matins were mandated by the bishops, or at least celebrated in the cathedrals.

As long as we are making painful changes, let's do that too.

Why?

Why what? Why make painful change Or why recover the whole liturgical cycle of Vespers-Matins-Liturgy?

For one thing, the changeable parts for feasts are mostly found in Vespers, as well as the Old Testament readings.

The cathedral of my Eparchy, St. Nicholas Cathedral, celebrates both Ukrainian and English Great Vespers on Saturday evenings in Chicago. Two blocks away at Sts. Volodymyr and Olha Vespers is celebrated (Julian Calendar) in Ukrainian as well.

And regarding the issue of "why" asked by Simple Sinner, much of the lex orandi for the Resurrection and other moments of our salvation history are contained in the rich texts of Vespers and Matins. That should be a primary aspect of restoration, not secondary.

In my last post, I wrote concerning the public recitation of the anaphora: �This issue is consistently ignored, and whether you agree with the practice or not - it is a substantive issue.�
In the responses to my post, only Deacon Randall responded to this, otherwise it was systematically ignored. Will the restoration of the reading of the anaphora aloud save the Church/Liturgy? Perhaps not - but it is the expression of the central mystery of our faith - the Paschal mystery. It is what Christianity is all about. At the very least, it would open this treasure to the people. If someone were to ask me, �Do you think that the celebration of the full traditional Liturgy is not a good thing?� I would respond, �Do you say (read, proclaim, sing, chant) the anaphora aloud?� If not, you have accomplished nothing.
Stephanie says, �Maybe the commonality we all have is that we dislike what our Hierarchs have done to our beloved Divine Liturgy.� However, this cannot serve as the common ground, because it is precisely the point on which we disagree.
Diak says that we cannot separate the priest�s office from the whole Liturgy - of course not! The Liturgy is an incorporation of various roles creating one worshiping community. The office of the priest is �for� the community. This does not mean there is not a �priest�s role,� otherwise anyone could celebrate the Liturgy, and this role - prayer in the name of the community - definitely needs renewal. It is also true that not all the presbyteral prayers were said aloud, and I enumerated which were the private prayers of the priest in my post # 246789 on July 27.

Dear Father David,

Let's open the treasure even more. Rip out the iconostas and turn the altars around, that will 'open up this treasure to the people' even more! Same argument, same idea, and it is wrong.

I never felt excluded from the Liturgy because of the icons, or the singing, or the priest facing the altar, or the silent prayers.

I DO feel excluded by this revision, by the inclusive language fiasco, the ugly words and impossible music. I used to participate, now I can't. I am excluded now. Nothing has been 'opened up' for me by this fiasco.

My money has been spent (more than a million dollars?) on this disaster, my heart has been broken, and faith disturbed.

It would be nice if the bishops who did this apologized for the harm they have done to our Church by this terrible decision, things might begin to heal.

In the mean time, my money is going elsewhere, and I am patiently waiting for my Church to come to its senses.

Nick

A priest who celebrates the Divine Liturgy and does not pray the Anaphora aloud has not �accomplished nothing�. He has accomplished the Eucharist. That is everything.

Jeff,

Let's be honest. You know and I know what our Traditions are and aren't. Why do you want people to be happy with only part of our Traditions being restored and yet ignore the new innovations and inclusive language that has now become official practice with the RDL?

The hierarchs could clear this up easily and we both know this. Instead of revising, restoring and evangelizing should be what took place.

By the way, I'm still trying to figure out why the Cathedral in Munhall has time for Saturday evening liturgy when instead it should be doing Vespers. The Cathedral in Munhall has a more than qualified cantor who can chant Vespers. What do you consider our Tradition Jeff, Vespers or Saturday evening liturgies?

The bottom line is that no surveys are needed, we have great writers and theologians who have handed down the proper Traditions, why don't we all listen to them?


Dr. John,

perhaps you can share with the board how one goes about doing a proper prostration with pews in front and in back of you. The Great Canon of St. Andrew has many, many, many, prostrations, I would love to hear how one would go about performing these?



Father David,

I understand your negative animus towards questions not being answered.

Could you please share why the Cathedral in Munhall has time for Saturday evening liturgies yet does not celebrate Vespers even when they have a more than qualified cantor who is able to chant Vespers?

Also, how many times did any of our Cathedrals celebrate the Great Canon of St. Andrew in the last 100 years?

Monomakh

The question is will the RDL stop the loss of membership in the Ruthenian Metropolia? Has any Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church gained membership since the the introduction of the RDL?
Will the Ruthenian Metropolia survive? Is the Ruthenian Metropolia destined to only be a dying anomaly dependent upon Bi-ritual Latin Priests and their Roman bishops to survive?

Food for thought...

Ungcsertezs

So the efficacy of the Sacrifice is premised solely on an aloud Anaphora in its entirety? This insinuation is most disturbing, especially the personal interpretation of "having accomplished nothing", and is certainly not supported by Church doctrine (Catholic or Orthodox).

I think we've seen the evidence here. This unfortunate and bad revision of the Liturgy, and the bad books which the bishops have dumped on us, is founded on BAD theology.

Good theology and good liturgy go together. Unfortunately, they are not to be found in the mandated Revisions of the Liturgy.

Let's lose these books now, and replace them with something better.

Nick