www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I like the changes to the Divine Liturgy, anybody else agree?

Honestly, yes.

Yes, don't worry. I think this nightmare will be over soon. My priest said there were going to be some changes at the seminary for the better. This revision has been a terrible mistake, but this 'crisis' (as Fr. David calls it) will be over soon (I hope), and it will be time to work for the renewal of our Liturgy.

A lot of time and energy has been wasted, but I think we've all learned something, and any future work will have to be based on good theology, good scholarship, and the official books of our Church.

This is a distraction, but don't be discouraged, it will be over soon.

Nick

I agree 100% with Ung... Stay where you are.

Hersch, I think this is the better course, that is, seeking advice from the priest locally. Asking on a public internet board is not the best way to discern God's will for such a critical matter in your life. You need to discernment to make the right choice.

I cannot and am not telling you what to do; but I think it is way too soon to give up on the Ruthenian Church. We will weather this.

But seek local counsel, spiritual direction in your discernment for transferring rites.

Lance

I thank you all for your kind words and prayers, I guess I just flew into a panic on seeing all the discussions on the RDL here in the boards and did not think clearly. I will continue to seek the counsel of my confessor and my pastor. I am very sure of God's will in regards to my changing rites and will go where I feel He is calling me (the Ruthenian). Please pray for me as I go through the final few months of this process.

Why do you keep propagating this specious argument that the vostochniki were not supportive of the improvements that have taken place in the past. The official fullness and beauty of our Tradition is and was being ignored and noone was and is supposed to ask what the heck is going on? That doesn't mean that the vostochniki weren't supportive of some things being done correctly finally. Questioning why the official books weren't being used is something you'll ever get me to feel guilty for. If your including me in some of these time periods by the way, please note that I was not even using a razor until the late 1980s considering that I was not alive in the 1960s. However much like all the vostochniki, I don't want to wait until I'm 90 years old for the hierarchs to finally get it right. How long are we supposed to wait? Furthermore, the hierarchs should do what is true to Tradition and not based on how many pats on the back they received from the laity. Making excuses for a chopped up feminized liturgy is just that, excuses.


So now the majority opinion of the laity matters? Since there's concern about the majority being disgruntled, take a poll of the laity's thoughts on the new music, or does the majority's opinion only matter when revisions and abbreviations are in question?

I've never heard anyone say that there shouldn't be music in the books, only that there shouldn't be lousy music in the books.

In the UGCC we have our theologically challenged parishes with many of the same latinizations and lack of Vespers and Matins. Yet our books still contain the proper rubrics for the doors, curtain, little litanies, three verse antiphons, etc. The BCA could have done this. How are people not supposed to think that there is an agenda with the new liturgy?

Furthermore, you continue to state on here that parishes are allowed to celebrate full liturgies. This is absolutely not the case. Priests and Deacons have been explicitly told to only serve what is in the new books. Period. Are you unaware of this or is this spin?



I'm thinking of sharing this quote with my Orthodox friends but I'm afraid they'll laugh too hard. The next time someone posts on here that Patriarch Alexy and the rest of the Orthodox aren't serious about reunion, this quote is going up. Greek Catholics have priests who decide not to celebrate Vespers and get away with it year after year and its the Orthodox who aren't serious.


So its the laity that are supposed to lead. Why don't the leaders of the BCA lead? Why doesn't the qualified priest and qualified cantor educate the laity at the cathedral. It's all the laities fault right?



This is why its even more imperative to have hierarchs that adhere to what the real Traditions are. They're supposed to uphold what has been passed onto us. By looks of the BCA and most Greek Catholic parishes for that matter this hasn't been happening.


it is NOT a move towards Vespers. It is a move towards more confusion and creating a generation of ignoramuses who don't know what real Vespers is. Then when my sons generation asks what the heck is going on they'll have to hear how for so many years we've been doing this and now its the way it is. This is the same tactic that was used to jam one verse antiphons, absence of the proper litanies, etc. down the throat of the laity.


Monomakh

Monomakh,

I really don't know what you're "cryin" about!!! We have the Anaphora aloud now -- all is well.

From an outsiders view, I don't understand why the hierarchs should appeal to the lowest common denominator. The Latin Church is now looking to correct this post-VC2 mistaken view of the laity. All Cathedrals SHOULD celebrate the full liturgical Tradition, when this happens the local parishes will follow. I understand that some people aren't used to Vespers or non-Divine Liturgy services, but when the main church - the Cathedral - points to the "best way", the local parish will try to emulate that "best way", at least to the best of their ability.

If even the Cathedral is taking shortcuts and loopholes, the local parish - which has less resources and funds - will look to emulate that behaviour. In a local setting, this mentality is suicide. Minimalism leads to laxity, which soon leads to closures.

The full expression SHOULD be mandated, parishes which "need" to be dispensed "for pastoral reasons" can also petition the local bishop citing economia. When this is not abused, all will be well. If it is abused or cited unnecessarily (i.e. Latin Church nationally dispensing of holy days to eat corned beef during Lent), this will not work. (I understand that some Irish-Americans have the custom of eating corned beef and hash during St. Patrick's Day, but this can be taken care of one-on-one priest to parishoner - there is no need of a regional/national/publicized 'dispensation').

Father David,

Are Saturday evening liturgies the Byzantine Tradition?

Is not having Vespers and/or Matins in 90%+ of BCA parishes the Byzantine Tradition?

So maybe you and the hierarchs can demonstrate this non black and white feature of the Byzantine Tradition and allow the full liturgy with the proper rubrics being practiced in BCA parishes, instead of taking a black and white position of RDL good, full liturgy bad, or is this where black and white applies and the Byzantine Tradition goes out the window?

What success stories of parishes implementing chopped up liturgies can you point to in the BCA? I can point to several parishes that grew in attendance when fuller liturgies and liturgical cycles were introduced.


The liturgical change that was and is needed is the restoration of our true liturgical tradition which is in direct contradiction with what you have speciously argued that the RDL is. So is the RDL the metropolia's way of hurting back? It's interesting to see you call this a crisis, why doesn't the dwindling attendance and lack of children in the unnecessary pews earn the label of crisis? Why doesn't the lack of evangelizing rise to the level of crisis? The last thing the BCA needed was another crisis, yet the RDL has brought just that.


Monomakh

Please read what I wrote above. I was talking about Vespers and Matins. As far as the Divine Liturgy, since Bishop John's directive to his own Eparchy was brought to my attention, I haven't make a single such statement.


*shrug* In the past six years, I've seen something like 50 cantors receive sound and positive instruction in the celebration of Vespers and Matins. In the past, such instruction was minimal or non-existent. Even the Advanced Cantor School in the 1980's didn't have this; Jerry Jumba said he didn't include regular Vespers music because "no one would use them." And Professor Thompson has gone on record in print in favor of ending Saturday evening liturgies, and having a full cycle of Vespers and Matins. Also ending the celebration on multiple liturgies at a single altar. And yet people like him, and like me, are called "revisionists" because we don't publicly disobey or "bad mouth" the bishops.

(If you really think a cantor has much authority in a parish - short of threatening to walk - you don't understand a cantor's role. When I was younger, I DID go ahead and take antiphons,readings and hymns beyond what my pastor told me to take - and was ROUNDLY taken to task by Orthodox priest friends with impeccable credentials, who told me I was flat wrong to do so.)

As far as "lousy music", the first example of "bad music" that has been proposed was based on a musically nonsensical proposition ("the high note is always an accent" - something every professional singer is taught to UNLEARN as soon as possible). Our parish is certainly singing the music awfully well, and back to harmonizing every Sunday (and our cantor in Binghamton was just exclaiming over music that he liked to sing, but hadn't had in our books in English). Then again, for years our cantor had sung "the old way" and ignored the "simplified" music dating from 1970 - and the people sang with him.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

The RDL music is an interpretation. It clearly is different from the Church Slavonic original. I'm reminded of this every time I attend a Church Slavonic liturgy, which is usually at least twice a month.

Ungcsertezs

Dear Ungcsertezs,

Indeed - in fact, every TIME a chant is sung it is an interpretation! But the fact is that where the new music differs from the "canonical" Slavonic versions, it is either to follow a common variation (generally a widely used one) preferred by the Music Commission, or to better match the English text. The primary difference from earlier English versions is that the melodies are not arbitrarily and inconsistently shortened, but use the flexibility in the Slavonic melodies to accommodate the English text. (A thorough study of the Slavonic makes it clear that even in Slavonic, there were specific and traditional patterns to the ways melodies were to be adapted to various circumstances. These patterns were usually neglected in the published English settings in the past, though individual professors often used one or another of them.)

As I've repeatedly asked before, I would be pleased if you would send me your proposed versions of how the chant OUGHT to be sung in English, so we can discuss them.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

With his permission, I will send you Professor Jumba's music.

Ungcsertezs

Dear Ungcsertezs,

Unless it's within the last year or two, there is no need, as I most likely have it. I'm asking to hear FROM YOU (since you are the one who says it's obvious) which melodies to consider. A PM would be fine, or start a new thread to avoid cluttering this one please - or I can send you my postal mail address. And THANKS for being willing to talk details.

(I should say that if Jerry HAS done an edited commentary of the new book, I'd love to see it; he didn't mention any such attempt the last time we spoke.)

Yours sincerely,
Jeff

I find that Jerry's translations are true to the Slavonic original with out any drastic change of the written music. No "t-t-t-th-e-e-e-e" text to music translations.

Ungcsertezs