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I was was wondering you all could share your wisdom and/or opinion on different postures for prayer. Specifically, are there any postures that are not appropriate for prayer and/or have some way of aligning ourselves with demonic forces. I ask this question after a number of parishioners went to listen to a Catholic apologist on the New Age movement and have approached me on the topic. For example, the practices of sitting in the lotus position or practicing the movements of Tai Chi are completely incompatible with Christianity as they align us for demonic intrusion.

I await your responses while I try to do some research on the matter. Thanks.

Father Michael:

This is not wisdom, but opinion, based on a study my spiritual father had me do during Lent 1990:

A good resource for you is a book entitled The Unicorn in the Sanctuary, by Randy England. You should be able to pick up a copy on Amazon. It outlines these types of things and the dangers inherent. The research was done as this type of thing was just getting off the ground.

Personally, I pray while sitting in a chair--Western style; feet on the floor--or standing, or walking, or kneeling. But these borrwoings from Hinduism leave me with great fear. Personally, I can't do the lotus position because of a chronic hip problem--one wants to ahve the leg come out of the socket following injuries over the last 20 years; more than a littel painful.

I would simply warn my parishioners in the strongest possible way that this is spiritual suicide, that this life is no "dress rehearsal," that we get one shot to "get it right," and that a pattern of New Age practice certainly isn't going to help us be open to the Holy Spirit but rather will open us to dark, demonic spirits.

I can send you some things I have witnessed personally if you wish.

One more thing: there is no such thing as a "Catholic apologist for the New Age" because the New Age and the Catholic Church are completely opposed to each other in basic assumptions and goals.

In Christ,

BOB

Fr. Michael,

For a well grounded Christian, there is no problem at all with Yoga or Tai Chi. It would not be uncommon to see a native Indian Christian sitting in the lotus position. There may be some danger with naive or ignorant Christians adopting false religious doctrines because they are simply unaware of what Christianity is. (How many Roman Catholics believe the Immaculate Conception to refer to the conception of Jesus?)

We recognize that He is everywhere present and fills all things � and that extends to include other authentic religious traditions. Every religion is a set of symbols, laws, stories, and rituals that point toward a greater spiritual reality. All religions reflect a ray of truth which enlightens all, and the Church exhorts us to acknowledge, preserve and promote the spiritual and moral goods in other religions. (from Vatican II Decree, Nostra Aetate)

Saint Ephraem says that revelation is not limited to the pages of the Scriptures, but all creation is a revelation and is encountered everywhere in hidden layers of symbol and analogy seen through the eyes of faith.

A well grounded Christian can thus practice these things for health reasons -- an obvious moral good. It is also possible to view them to be a natural religious symbol developed by people without direct revelation that ultimately points to God.

Usually, a demonic posession would result from a willing victim asking to be posessed by a spirit as in the case of vodoo or santeria. An authentic Christian practicing Yoga cannot be possessed by a spirit against their will because Christ simply does not abandon His people!

Dear Father Michael,

Bless!

In my humble opinion, I would *definitely* have my parishioners stick to the traditional positions/postures for prayer...whether that be standing, kneeling, or sitting. If your parishioners like the 'exotic' aspect of the East, they can always prostrate themselves as well... that being something we have in common with the Middle Eastern Muslim world. I would also emphasize any of the above positions to be done infront of holy iconograpy.

I would not allow any Far Eastern trendy new age postures for prayer. They just do *not* have a place in Christianity and can be potentially spiritually dangerous.

As far as tai chi and the lotus position, etc., I would counsel my parishioners that if they absolutely insist on taking yoga or tai chi(actually I always thought those looked like really neat morning exercizes) to leave those only for exercise and balance of the physical body, and absolutely prohibit and leave the methodology of any prayer or meditation that can be associated with it OUT of it.

I always wonder why those who want mystical experiences don't look to the traditions of Eastern monastic Christianity instead of pagan religions?!? If they want a mantra, the Jesus Prayer is sufficient. If they want disciplines, Eastern Christian tradition offers many of those too!!


In Christ,
Alice

Because, my friend, almost no one in the West knows of the Eastern Church. Of the few who do, many do not know of theosis and its techniques. Of those who do, it is often merely an academic subject.

Meanwhile, millions and millions of people in the West are groping blindly for the Holy Spirit and stumbling into New Age.

The solution is obvious -- tell people in the West about theosis, by word and by example. But to do that, the Eastern Church might actually have to stop with financial corruption and tinkering with the liturgy and lingering in the cloister long enough to actually get out and tell people about Jesus and the Holy Spirit. There are a few who do that --God bless them, and one of them is my pastor-- but we need more. Many more.

-- John

And of course, the West has its own traditions, including evangelical poverty, direct service among the poor, contemplative prayer, and its own liturgical and devotional traditions - which similarly were not passed on in the last half of the twentieth century to those who are seekers now. Unfortunately, few of those who admire and listen to Gregorian chant take seriously the monastic life that created it, and the lay lifestyle inspired by the same spirit.

This is not about East or West - the "East" that many are looking into is a perennial heresy - but about an unwillingness - ours and our parents' - to (a) accept our own deep traditions and the Church's teaching, (b) live them out, and (c) apply the lessons learned to our lives in this place and time.

Like the Eastern Church, the Western spiritual writers speak much less about posture and spiritual "technique" than about purification of motive, and the movements of the heart - though it is true that the West, often seeing prayer as accompanying labor (whether monastic, evangelical or ordinary), seems to assume that much prayer is done less formally, and the whole question of posture doesn't come up. (Consider "The Evening Angelus", for example.) This is somewhat more in keeping with the Desert Fathers than with the monastic ideal of celebrating a "complete round of services." Didn't the Domostroi assume that Christian men would be in church quite a few times during the day?

Jeff

Father Michael,

The general response that "card carrying" Christians are seeking the Holy Spirit but don't know how to find it is more true than we would like to admit. In their spiritual hunger they turn to that which is most prevalent, the commercial product, which is generally how New Age is marketed.

It is rather strange that if you offer a class regarding the Holy Spirit, contemplative prayer, or Scripture for free people won't attend, but they will pay to go to some sort of New Age class. It must be the "cheap thrill" appeal.

I would warn everyone to be especially vigilant of potential demonic "influence" if not "possession." From what I've read people don't ask to be possessed, they get suckered into dabbling, then get zapped! It's similar to sin, you get teased into it without the intention of disobeying God, but before you know it it becomes a habit.

The comment "there is no such thing as a Catholic New Age apologist is right on!

I won't even consider yoga because it goes against my conscience. If people want to try some "strange" positions, those saints who suffered in the name of reparation set much better examples. For example, take St John the Baptist as the first New Testament example.

Fr Deacon Paul

Not quite true. Normally, demonic oppression is initiated either via the Law of Attraction, or Law of Invitation. There have been cases though, of uninvited, unwarranted demonic assault resulting in not only obsession and oppression, but outright possession. If the Holy Spirit is not present in the Temple of the body, the body becomes, so to say, an empty house, which the unclean ones are only to happy to inhabit. Based on the testimony of Holy Scripture, the Orthodox Church would not accept that a demon could reside in the same Temple filled with the Holy Spirit. Our Lord Himself tells us �When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, he goes through dry places, seeking rest, and finds none. Then he says, �I will return to my house from which I came.� And when he comes, he finds it empty, swept, and put in order. Then he goes and takes with him seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter and dwell there; and the last state of that man is worse than the first." (Matthew 12:43-45). The demons love an "empty house". But if the Holy Spirit is there, there is no place for the demon to reside. In as much as we abide in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit abides in us.

Alexandr

Father Michael actually wrote that his parishioners heard a Catholic Apologist speak on the New Age, not that there was a Catholic New Age Apologist.



Certain Yoga postures are actually based on the calisthenics that the Yogis (not Yogi Berra or Yogi Bear) observed the occupying British soldiers performing.

There is nothing magical about body weight exercising, except how it magically saves you in gym membership fees.

Dr. Eric:

With all due respect, a Catholic apologist who DID NOT STRONGLY SPEAK AGAINST the New Age Movement would not have had Fr. Michael's people asking him questions about it. They would have been warned strongly about the dangers and have found no reason to question their pastor about it. Additionally, he would not have had to come here to ask us about specific positions that they were asking him about. With all due respect there is no such thing as a "Catholic apologist" who speaks about the New Age movement without strongly warning against it and its dangers. To me, it's an oxymoron: akin to square circles.

A woman in my parish related to me her own story about a brush with the New Age some 20 years ago. She went to a retreat where the Jesuit priest spoke about all these things. The next thing she knew she was the "volunteer" to be "channeled." Not knowing what this was all about but trusting the priest, she tells of being taken hold of by a demon, feeling terribly violated and dirty, and ending up having two nervous breakdowns with the year after this "Catholic" retreat. She was terrified when this same sort of thing was mentioned in our parish because the whole experience came back to her. She claims she's been in therapy trying to overcome the after effects of this experience ever since.

That's one reason I don't think this is anything to be taken lightly.

My own brother has/had direct experience with "TM"--a close cousin to Centering Prayer. I've witnessed him in a deep trance and the temperature of the room he was "meditating" in become so cold that the atmosphere reminded me of the room in the movie The Exorcist. The room became darker than anything I'd ever witnessed in my life and the cold was colder than any cold I've ever experienced in northern winters. This happened in the with the heat on in the house--the heat had no effect. When he was finished, everything returned to normal. He uses the lotus position.

My brother had refused to enter a church of any kind for many years. Go figure.

I've seen what happens to people in my own parish. Tell me what Christian practice demands that people go to church late at night or through the night, sit in complete darkness, and that in the lotus position!?!?

In Christ,

BOB

With all due respect, Bob, I'll thank you for not raising your voice by using all caps and bold face type.

Dr. Eric raised a valid point. Some of yoga is simply physical exercise and meditation. It is neither religious nor spiritual unless people choose to make it so.

Millions of people practice yoga without any ill effect to body, mind and spirit. Millions of others practice the Oriental martial arts (which also can have a spiritual component) with no ill effects.

Sadly, your post reflects the views of many conservative Christians whom I have seen, heard or read on the subject. They seem to equate forms of exercise from the Orient as being a stepping stone to demonic possession or influence. The people who practice such disciplines find that assertion to be offensive, naturally. It also can lead them to conclude that Christians can be close-minded, ignorant and judgmental and that Christianity is a club where only its own are tolerated, acknowledged and respected. I say this because I have heard and read as much from people who actually feel that way. They are not few in number.

I respectfully suggest that Western civilization, amidst its awesome material success, has lost its spiritual center. I also suggest that many people innately crave spiritual fulfillment and that they will go to great lengths to fulfill it. The great numbers of people seeking out the "New Age" is evidence of this. So too is the great number of Evangelical and Pentecostal converts. Etc.

And so, I respectfully suggest that the solution is not a simple condemnation. Rather, the solution for Christians, Eastern and Western, is to revive their own forms of deep spirituality (such as Eastern theosis or Western contemplation) and to present that as the spiritual basis for an entire, fulfilling way of life.

-- John

JOHN:

Forgive me if my use of all caps and bold offended you. My intent was to use this for the strongest possible emphasis.

Let's look at Father Michael's posted question.

Father didn't mention exercise. His parishioners did not go to a gym and were not treated to a demo on how certain yoga exercises can be used for stretching the body or for keeping one fit. He asked about prayer postures and mentioned himself that the lotus position can open a person to "demonic intrusion": his words. It seems to me that he is asking how he might better answer his parishioners about the possible dangers to their spiritual health here. At no time did he mention exercise, because simple exercise would not have had the people go to their pastor for comment or advice.

Secondly, he mentions "Catholic apologist." If I were to see an advertisement for a "Catholic apologist" I would assume I would be hearing someone well schooled in the basics of the Faith and one who could help me not only understand the Faith better, but also to give me some foundation for answering anti-Catholic (and anti-Orthodox) arguments that we all meet in the workplace, public gatherings, and even among some of our own brethren who have a little understanding of the Faith but who have mixed up some of it with their own ideas that may be off or who have taken the common attitude that they can determine for themselves what they can or should believe based entierely on their own conscience's decisions.

Apparently the folks who went to Father Michael came away with some things that made them wonder or disturbed them or, again, they would probably not have bothered to approach their pastor. I don't carry questions about exercise learned at my gym to my pastor or confessor. But if they started to teach me that my exercise routine might somehow link me to a greater or better way to pray, I would certainly seek out my spiritual father.

Father Michael, it seems to me, is asking how to deal with New Age practices that have been introduced as being compatible with the Faith and this assertion has disturbed his people. He recognizes this danger and is asking us for help.


John, as far as I am concerned, I am none of the above. I am simply a Catholic Christian who has decided not to jump into every fad that comes along, but rather to test the spirits and sharpen my own discernment as to new things proposed by the traditional methods of prayer and the seeking out of solid spiritual advice. I'd also like you to know that my parish has become deeply involved in this sort of thing and the fruits are rather frightening. There is a group that has taken New AGe methods to the next level from simple positions. They meet late at night and pray in the dark in our parish church. Why is it necessary to pray in the dark? They also ask that others leave so they can pray. Why is that? (I myself have been asked to leave after a Bible study when it was time for the rest of the group to pray. I was told that I was tolerated at the Bible study but was not "one of us" when it came to praying afterwards.)

There are also a large number of parishioners who have become involved with New Age practices who will not come into our chapel in the mornings for Eucharistic Adoration because it's "not what we do." They also stay away when the rosary is being recited for the same reason. And they make no excuse about it; they openly tell others that this is their intention, that they are byond all this old fashioned stuff.

Beyond all this, I have personally been the object of what has been identified as a demonic assault on two occasions in our parish church. I did not make this identification myself; my spiritual father did. Others have noticed that there seems to be some sort of "oppressive atmosphere" that has developed but they cannot simply put their fingers on it.

But lest I become the focus here and not Father Michael's request, I will simply not continue to argue about this area any more. Father asked for advice and wisdom and I labeled my first response as not being wisdom but simply a response based on my own experience. I have seen the fruit in my own family, both biological and spiritual. While I know that there is good in other people who believe in other religions, I also know that Christ alone is "the Way, the Truth, and the Life." I also know that the definition of evil is not that something is bad but that somethig bad is decorated or disguised with what appears to be good.


JOHN:

I agree with you here fully. The problem is that there are so few trained in these areas and the average person has little opportunity to take advantage of them. But the New Age is easy, all around us, and is being promoted by those who should be promoting traditional forms.

With that, I ask for your prayers and promise all here mine,

BOB

Bob makes valid points. I know that he has had experiences which make him feel strongly about his points. Demonic activity is NOT to be ignored, and is all too available and innocent looking to Christian people through many venues today, even, as in Bob's case, churches.

I think that, at this point, we have covered just about everything in response to Father Michael's post, so let us just wait for Father Michael to respond now.

Thank you.

In Christ,
Alice, Moderator

Wow! Thank you everyone for your responses thus far.

I suppose some clarification is needed here. My question regarding certain postures of prayer being detrimental and/or dangerous to one�s spiritual life is based out of an event that occurred in Winnipeg last weekend. A Catholic apologist on the New Age (and by that I mean a Catholic apologist who spoke about the dangers of the New Age) spoke here. Unfortunately, I was not able to attend any of her two presentations. However, some parishioners went and have come back to me with questions especially about prayer postures.

They told me this apologist claimed that any use of Yoga, or Tai Chi, etc. was opening oneself up to demonic powers. I questioned them asking if it was the whole philosophy of Yoga or Tai Chi, etc. along with the physical postures that this apologist was speaking about. They claimed that it was simply the postures of these New Age practices that opened a person up to demonic forces. One claimed the apologist said that by sitting in the lotus one aligns the spine for demonic intrusion.

I have my own thoughts about this but have yet to share them with my parishioners because I wanted to discuss it with some more or less knowledgeable people on the forum.

Having heard from those who responded, let me first say � brothers, sisters, let�s discuss this only in charity.

I have had some exposure to New Age practice in my Latin Seminary training (there were classes on such at the Catholic university I attended, as well as a New Age bookstore and Emporium across the street from the seminary. As well, family members in the past have had some involvement in occult practices. I am very aware of the demonic forces today. It is very evident in the apathy toward human life and all creation.

That being said� I have to agree with what theophilius and Alice have written. For well grounded Christians, the practice of Tai Chi, for example, for the sole purpose of exercising and breathing as a benefit to a person�s overall health, there is no problem. Just do not absorb the philosophy/religion/ associated with it if it is not compatible with Christianity. At the same time, I would be very wary about having young Christians, or Christians who are not well grounded take on these practices. I like especially what byzkat had to offer: �Like the Eastern Church, the Western spiritual writers speak much less about posture and spiritual �technique� than about purification of motive, and the movements of the heart.� This is important! A well-grounded Christian will be concerned about this.

While I do not practice the lotus position (I actually have tried and end up laughing hysterically!), I do like the movements of Tai Chi and do not espouse its beliefs.

Our blessed father in the Faith, St. Dominic, has nine good suggestions for prayer posture:

http://www.fisheaters.com/stdominic9ways.html

Alexis