www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Precedence: Cardinals and Patriarchs

Dear chaps,

some twit on Wikipedia keeps editing the order of precedence on the Catholic Church Hierarchy [en.wikipedia.org] to place Cardinals before Patriarchs, quoting the old Catholic Encyclopaedia in support of it.

Can anyone quote document or verifiable sources that place Patriarchs before Cardinals?

Many thanks!

Edward Yong

That pharisee!!!

Well, one could easily present photographs showing how the Pope receives the Ecumenical Patriarch when the Patriarch visits St. Peter's!

Fr. Serge

Vatican I did this and the unfortunate compromise worked out at Vatican II made all Eastern Patriarchs a Cardinal. Vatican I is directly contrary to Florence which set Eastern Patriarchs above the Cardinals. The argument for the precedence is that the Cardinals directly represent the Pope. The counter argument is that the Cardinals are just electors and do not themselves share the Petrine ministry, even though they assist the governance of the Church (also it is possible to have a mere deacon or layman appointed a Cardinal). It is a canon law issue that will hopefully be revised in the future because the Orthodox would never accept being "promoted" to Cardinal (and Eastern Catholics should not accept this also)

Nor should they accept a Latin pallium when made archbishops.

(1) Eastern Patriarchs are not automatically created Cardinals. The Patriarch of the Armenians and the Patriarch of the Mlekites have not been created Cardinals (or, as rumors go, refuse to be elevated to the Cardinalate!).

(2) Deacons and laymen are not eligible for elevation to the Cardinalate. Only those who are already ordained to the preisthood can be elevated. Even then, such priests who are created Cardinals must be forthwith ordained as Bishops, unless a dispensation is granted by the Pope, like where those priests are already old. (e.g. Cardnal Dulles.)

(3) Collegially, the Cardinals, when summoned in a consistory, deal with questions of major importance, i.e., those affecting the Catholic Church universal. Individually, when Cardinals are appointed to the dicasteries of the Roman Curia, they act as alter egos of the Pope and, as such, they lend assistance to the governance of the Catholic Church universal.

(4) Eastern Patriarchs who are created Cardinals belong to Order of Bishops in the College of Cardinals (Section 1, Canon 350, Latin Code of Canons) but are ranked lower than the Latin Cardinals who hold suburbicarian titles. Further, the Dean and Vice Dean of the College are Latin Rite Cardinals, who are elected by and among the 6 Latin Rite Cardinals within the Order of Bishops. (Recently, the membership in the Order of Bishops has been "divided" into Cardinal Bishops [Latin Rite] and Cardinal Partriarchs [Eastern Patriarchs].

(5) As a collegial body, the College of Cardinals holds the reins of governance of the entire Catholic Church during the interregnum (between the death of a Pope and the election of his successor) and supervise the election of the Roman Pontiff=Supreme Pontiff, which is the most important duty of the Cardinals.

Amadeus,

Re: #2 When was this law changed? St. Charles Borromeo was created a Cardinal when he was a layman.

God Bless You,

Dr. Eric

Let me get this straight now, no matter if the Patriarch is the head of one of the sui juris churches, he will always rank lower than a cardinal with a titular see and no real diocese. Isn't that like saying "no matter what, you are only second class"? Not much there for any of the Orthodox to look forward to in the manner of reunion.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

And +Alexei of Moscow is accused of Pride?

Alexandr

http://woodstock.georgetown.edu/church_studies/reese/ec/ec-9fahey.htm


If that's true then Patriarchs and Patriarchal Synods are certainly of less rank and importance than the Curia and Cardinals.

Dr. Eric:

It's been a relatively recent change. I believe that His Holiness, John Paul II, of blessed memory changed it. It is at least since Vatican II.

BOB

No wonder many EC's have an inferiority complex...sounds like they are being "hosed" again...

Chris

Father Anthony, I must say I agree. And if you look at the way the Vatican operates and treats the Eastern Catholics, it is very clear that they will always be second class citizens as would we were we to come into communion with Rome. It really is not with Rome, but under Rome. What is interesting is that the office of Cardinal is not an office of the New Testament nor of the early Church and it appears that you have two Western councils contradicting one another on the status of cardinals, patriarchs, etc. I just can't possibly imagine Christ and the apostles wishing something this convoluted and patronizing be created in the Church.

Joe

For that matter, why is there a "congregation for the Oriental churches". Kind of makes them seem like a strange sub group incapable of managing themselves.

Please see the post I made entitled Melkites: An Addendum of thoughts

Specifically, read recent (2007) article in 30Days I posted.