www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Prayer Posture

Dear Father Michael,

Thank you for your quick interjection and clarification.

We ask for your holy blessings!

Dear Alexis,

The site you posted is AWESOME! All these postures are ones that we have seen at one time or another, though I have never seen the one in the sign of the cross. That is beautiful.

Thank you,
Alice

Bob,

I'm sorry if I caused any offense.

Thank you for a thoughtful reply.

I'm sorry that things have gotten weird at your parish. I wish people would be grown up enough either to live their beliefs in the appropriate denomination, or to obey the church they have chosen (freely) to be a part of.

Be well.

-- John

Father Michael:

Please accept my apology if I misread your original question. There seem to be many Catholic apologists in my experience and area who apologize for the New Age rather than the Faith. I do agree with you that exercise alone is no threat. On the other hand, so many think that they have to incorporate the whole theory and teaching behind the exercises as well.

Asking for your prayers,

BOB

It does not seem that physical posture alone would open one�s body and / or soul to demonic intrusion, especially if one�s body has been clothed in Christ through Baptism.

If, however, one has had a history of exploration into Yoga, Tai Chi, etc. (the spirituality and not just the exercise forms) and in the course of that exploration has exposed one�s self to demonic powers then one ought to avoid such physical positions as they may bring to mind the non-Christian spiritualities.

It might be possible that someone who is weak in faith might not be able to discern between the physical and the spiritual aspects of Yoga and Tai Chi. There is that line between recommending something potentially useful to the mature Christian but which might be confusing to the immature Christian. If a mature Christian can find benefit in these physical forms to support their prayer is it possible that the example could be misunderstood by others, and that they could conclude that not just the physical form is OK but also these non-Christian theologies?

It might be best to indicate that the physical forms of Yoga and Tai Chi could be useful but anyone practicing them as part of their prayer life has a responsibility to make sure that no one takes anything non-Christian from their example.

It also seems logical that undue emphasis on the physical posture can detract from prayer.

What about the inner posture; the posturing of one's thoughts and meditations?

Terry

Can you clarify exactly how your question relates to a discussion on physical posture in prayer? Or maybe that is the topic of a different discussion?

Prayer is not just about physical posture. I meant to ask if the mental/meditative attitude of the person is more important than how they kneel.

If they have imperfect posture and are wandering in thought and have a receptiveness to demonic influences, I would imagine that they need to first posture themselves internally. Because even if they adhere to good form externally but have not corrected their 'inner way of praying', then that would not seem to have helped them very much.

That may have nothing to do with this discussion. And if it doesn't then I am confused about this whole thread.

Terry

It seems to be a matter of topical focus. Of course the interior attitude is what is important (and I agree with what you wrote). But that is not the discussion at hand. The discussion at hand is the affect of the physical posture of Yoga and Tai Chi (and maybe related forms) on the interior posture of prayer.

I don't know about the how the philosophy behind Tai Chi or Yoga can leave us open to demonic possession. I guess it is possible. I have never experienced it or seen anything like it personally. But I did practice Yoga for a bit when I was wonderful and I found it to be absolutely wonderful. The peaceful, relaxed feeling I had at the end of a session was very similar to how I feel after a very moving Divine Liturgy (be honest--not all Divine Liturgies are the same. The homily and singing can make a great difference.) or just a simple period of time contemplating and thinking (talking to) about God and Jesus. It all comes down to peace, tranquility and the relaxed feeling I get thinking about how much Jesus loves me and cares for me. It is a very similar feeling to that of Yoga.

I have had a long serious of health problems and some of the breathing techniques I learned in Yoga have been absolutely instrumental in getting me through some of the tougher tests and procedures. I practice either square breathing (breathing in for four seconds, hold it for four seconds, breath out for four seconds, then hold it for four seconds) and then increase the number of seconds all the way around. That lowers my heartbeat and allows me to concentrate and put up with pain. Or the one that works the most is to breath out for twice as long as I breath in. Start out breathing in for three seconds, then out for six seconds. Do that for a bit, then increase to four seconds in, eight seconds out. Keep that up and I've been to nine seconds in, 18 seconds out. This one has gotten me through some incredibly tough procedures that lasted hours.

I also use the Jesus prayer and the "Otce Nas." Anything being able to lift myself away from the pain and discomfort I am going through.

I don't see anything wrong with some simple Yoga techniques. I don't feel that I have left myself open to demonic possession. I just allowed the peace of Jesus to enter into myself and gave my pain to God. Or rather, shared it with him. I am scheduled for some tests this Friday morning that I know will cause great pain. And I plan on breathing properly and sharing the moments with God. I hope it helps. There have been times when it has not been enough. With 14 vertebrae with rods and screws and pinched nerves up and down my spine, I need all the help I can get! Even a simple x-ray can be incredibly painful, since my spine simply does not bend the way it should anymore. Yet that is the position in which I need to stand, without moving, for several minutes. Help Jesus and he will help.

Just sharing my experiences. I'm not saying anyone is wrong or right.

Tim

Yoga and Tai Chi have different aims than Christian prayer. "Centering" or finding an "inner balance" seems foreign to prayer.

In an attempt to get on topic, I would be uncomfortable with these physical postures if not just for its link to Oriental spiritualism.

JOHN:

No offense taken.

I guess this is one of my "buttons." If you were in danger--or I had the perception you were in danger, even if later I were proven to be wrong or overreacting--I'd yell.

Sorry. I guess the negative I've experienced may not be normal, but it is my experience and it takes awhile to get it put in place and be able to "step back" and view things from a larger perspective.

Last night, as I was finishing up my first session training new lectors, my pastor came hurrying over to church. I'd just locked the place up so I let him back in and offered to turn on a light, but he said he didn't want a light on.

But Father Michael clarified and it turns out the whole story is opposite to what I'd perceived when I first read his first post.

BOB

"1. These movements have no foundation in Christian tradition or practice, but are purely the product of Eastern pagan religions or of modern spiritism, more or less diluted and often presented as "non-religious." They not only teach wrongly, not in accordance with Christian doctrine, about spiritual life; they also lead one, whether through pagan religious experiences or psychic experiments, into a wrong spiritual path whose end is spiritual and psychic disaster, and ultimately the loss of one's soul eternally.

2. Specifically, the experience of "spiritual quietness" which is given by various kinds of meditation, whether without specific religious content (as is claimed by "TM," some forms of Yoga and Zen, and the secular cults) or with pagan religious content (as in Hare Krishna, the "Divine Light Mission," "3H0," etc.), is an entrance to the "cosmic" spiritual realm where the deeper side of the human personality enters into contact with actual spiritual beings. These beings, in man's fallen state, are first of all the demons or fallen spirits who are closest to man. Zen Buddhist meditators themselves, despite all their cautions about spiritual "experiences," describe their encounters with these spirits (mixed with human fantasies), all the while emphasizing that they are not "clinging" to them.

3. The "initiation" into experiences of the psychic realm which the "consciousness cults" provide involves one in something beyond the conscious control of the human will; thus, once having been "initiated," it is often a very difficult thing to untangle oneself from undesirable psychic experiences. In this way, the "new religious consciousness" becomes an enemy of Christianity that is much more powerful and dangerous than any of the heresies of the past. When experience is emphasized above doctrine, the normal Christian safeguards which protect one against the attacks of fallen spirits are removed or neutralized, and the passiveness and "openness" which characterize the new cults literally open one up to be used by demons. Studies of the experiences of many of the "consciousness cults" show that there is a regular progression in them from experiences which at first are "good" or "neutral" to experiences which become strange and frightening and in the end clearly demonic. Even the purely physical side of psychic disciplines like Yoga are dangerous, because they are derived from and dispose one towards the psychic attitudes and experiences which are the original purpose of Yoga practice.

The seductive power of the "new religious consciousness" is so great today that it can take possession of one even while he believes that he is remaining a Christian. This is true not only of those who indulge in the superficial syncretisms or combinations of Christianity and Eastern religions which have been mentioned above; it is true also of an increasing number of people who regard themselves as fervent Christians. The profound ignorance of true Christian spiritual experience in our times is producing a false Christian "spirituality" whose nature is closely kin to the "new religious consciousness."

Excerpts from Fr. Seraphim Rose


Alexandr

BOB,

Edited, Father cleared up the confusion.

God Bless You,

Dr. Eric

I wonder then, in light of this discussion, what comes to mind regarding this movement: www.wccm.org [wccm.org]

Pagan

Alexandr