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Walt,

That may be true in Arizona and it might have been true up to a few years ago in Chicago, but it is not true here any longer. We accept the Eastern formulations and find a communion with Rome quite compatible with that.

Dan Lauffer

Walt,

Can you tell us how you formed the conclusion that we are now embracing Western doctrines at the expense of Byzantine ones? The official Byzantine Catholic Catechism does not mention any of these Latin doctrines and specifically teaches us that we are not to adopt them but rather embrace the traditional Byzantine doctrines on these issues.

Admin

Nik,
Communion with the Successor of Peter is the crown of Orthodoxy. This is something most Orthodox are lacking.

Admin

I don't understand or agree with this statement. The "crown of Orthodoxy" lies with all orthodox bishops of apostolic succession, in fidelity to the teachings of the Fathers and the Councils, and in fidelity to the legitimate liturgical traditions of the various churches.

It is rather presumptious to suggest that some special "crown" lies with the acceptance of supremacy of a church that has not always respected the liturgical, theological and ecclesial dignity of her daughters in the East. I would be insulted by this comment if I were orthodox outside of communion with Rome.

As an Orthodox in communion with Rome, the "crown of Orthodoxy" for me lies precisely in the maintenance of the orthodox tradition. It is through charity and love we maintain communion, not something we hold over those who are in a different ecclesial situation as the concluding comment of the Administrator above suggests.

Diak,

I respect your disagreement. The fact that Rome has not always treated other Churches in an acceptable manner has nothing to do with the fact that communion with her is necessary and, indeed, the crown of Orthodoxy. Pope John Paul II teaches that Orthodoxy and Catholicism have almost everything in common expect full communion. He has even put the role of the papal office on the table for discussion on how it might better serve the Church in the Third Millennium.

Is not Peter to preside in charity and love? Is he not called to set the example for others to follow?

Admin

Folks:

I vote YES!

1. We are "Orthodox" [if nothing else & inter alia, it says so in our Liturgies, cf. ...May the Lord God remember all of you Orthodox Christians in His Kingdom...; O God preserve the Orthodox Faith....; etc. (lex orandi?)]

2. We are in Communion with the Bishop of the God-saved city of Older Rome.

3. Q.E.D. n'est-ce pas?

cix

herb.

Er, what exactly is wrong with the Rosary? It is for everyone. Ditto the Immaculata. She is for everyone, too.

Why counterpose one set of doctrines & devotions to another? That seems so insular...so regional. Ours is a universal Church. What's wrong with acting that way? We have the immense riches of both East and West. Why not enjoy them all? What's wrong with having it all--Jesus Prayer and Rosary? It's not like they compete with each other. :rolleyes:

I can never understand this attitude that avoids everything Western like the proverbial plague. Why not pick and choose from the storehouse all those devotions that are meaningful and beneficial, whether they're Easterrn or Western? And how could that not include the Rosary? At Fatima, the Immaculata recommended it for everyone in the world. She said nothing about the West only. :p

Love,

ZT

Nothing is WRONG with it but it is not really Eastern tradition and surely, there are plenty of devotions in the East that should be encouraged that were connected to the Divine Services (the Akathistos etc) whereas in the West , they tended to be extraliturgical devotions.

Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy upon us. Amen.

I have just read Brian's post and have to say that the tradition of the rosary - known in Orthodoxy as the Rule of the Mother of God - was known and practised in the east for centuries before it was known in the west. In the form used since the last century - when it was particularly popular in Russia and the Ukraine - it consists of 15 decades of Hail Marys, each with a mystery and intercessory prayers.

With love in Christ -
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

After reading your post on the Rule of the Mother of God and your general and deeply spiritual tone, may I ask you something, although you are Orthodox?

May we adopt you?!

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Dear Zoe-Theodora,

What a regal screen name!

I agree with you completely.

As Fr. Mark shows, the Rosary and the Jesus Prayer are both alive and well among Orthodox (cradles especially ).

Jordanville publishes a Slavonic monastic rule of prayer.

It is mentioned there that monks of Mt. Athos and Russia are encouraged to pray 150 Our Fathers and 150 Hail Mary's daily but with a prostration at the end of each (genuflections were formerly done in the West).

St Tikhon of Zadonsk also had a life-size "Stations of the Cross" in his cell - the only religious images he had there.

I can go on about St Dmitri of Rostov and his Five Prayers or devotion to the joys and sorrows of the Mother of God, his praying the Hail Mary at the beginning of each hour and his Psalter of the Virgin Mary, a copy of that written by St Bonaventure (which is contained in the EWTN library).

But I won't .

Alex

We need to bear in mind that the examples of the likes of St Dimitri Rostovsky and St Tikhon Zadonsky represent at time when the 'official' Russian orthodox Church was going through an identity crisis and rejected many Orthodox practices in favour of alien ones.

After the schism in the late 17th century Russian churchmen followed the example of Peter the Great and started looking to the West for inspiration. However, unlike him it was not for only for cultural inspiration but for new religious directions.

The Ukrainians had already exchanged patristic Orthodoxy for one clothed in the language of the Catholic counter-reformation. The catechism of Metropolitan Peter Moghila reflects Latin thought and education was in Latin with text books based on Jesuit models. This had obvious effects on Orthodox spirituality.

The rejection of traditional iconography for debased baroque art and the replacement of sacred-chant with showy operatic music are obvious examples.

Bishops of the state Church began to import devotions quite foreign to Orthodoxy. Examples were the popularity of the'Imitation of Christ', stress on the crucified, suffering Christ, devotions to the wounds of Christ etc. There were also clear echoes of German pietism.

The question is - why did the Churchmen of the time feel the necessity to supplement the Orthodox Tradition with externals which were either alien to the Orthodox Tradition or in some cases quite opposed to it?

Additionally, after the abolition of the Patriarchate by Peter the Great, the Church became a department of state and the conciliar nature of the Church was thrown out. The Orthodox understanding of the Church was lost and replaced with a Lutheran consisrory.

Would all of this have happened if the state Church had remained steadfast in the Orthodox Tradition received form Byzantium at the baptism of Rus'?

I think not.

The rejection of Russian Orthodox Tradition in the late 17th century created a crisis which not only resulted in the raskol/schism, but also led to an crisis which upset the equilibrium of the 'state' Church and resulted in the importation of alien religious practises - some of them deep and meaningful - but nevertheless alien to Orthodoxy.

With love in Christ -
Mark, monk and sinner.

After being undecided, I finally decided to go with the Melkite Patriarch (quote provided) and vote "yes.":

"I ask the professors and the students always to use the phrase "in Communion with the Sister-Church of Rome." Do not say "a Church united with Rome" or "a Church under Rome", but say "a Church in full Communion with Rome". Up until now there is not a real dialogue between the Eastern Catholic Churches and Rome. Everyone understood that we were already united and thought that all the other questions were already settled. In this precisely there is the field for our work, to move from "Uniatism" to Communion."

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

You raise many interesting issues with respect to the Kyivan Baroque period in Orthodox history.

I wanted to share with you my own views on the "why's" here.

There is one "why" with respect to Orthodoxy dealing with the threat of Latinization coming from the powerful religious AND secular power of the Jesuits and their schools in the West.

The aristocracy in Europe was basically educated by the Jesuits and this could not but have exerted an influence on the aristocracy in Eastern Europe.

St Peter Mohyla was himself of princely background and would have been Sovereign of Moldavia if he had so chosen that life for himself.

The fact is that his many royal connections to western Roman Catholic royal families, including Polish, had "theological repercussions" on his attitude toward Rome, discussions with Latins etc.

It says a lot when the Poles arrested St Athanasius of Brest for disrupting their parliament, but instead of punishing him themselves, brought him to Peter Mohyla in Kyiv and placed him under his watchfulness. Mohyla told the Hieromonk to calm himself . . .

There was also the "why" in terms of how Orthodoxy was to do battle with the powerful Jesuit and Latin influence, the Unia included.

Sending Orthodox students to Paris and elsewhere to receive the same high level of education in those times and learn the Latin ways so as to be better equipped to counter them was one way.

The problem was that these Orthodox students came home wearing "Latin habits."

They imported a number of western Catholic devotions that soon became part of Orthodox life.

The University of Dayton published a fascinating paper on such devotions in Orthodoxy such as the "Brotherhoods of the Immaculate Conception."

These Orthodox brotherhoods required their members to wear the western medal of the Immaculate Conception and even adapted the Panaghia prayer to read: "All Immaculate Mother of God, save us!" They also took the "bloody vow" to defend to the death the doctrine of the IC! I have a copy of this paper in Ukrainian.

Latinization was heavily experienced in both Orthodox AND Greco-Uniate Churches at the time ("Greco-Uniate" being an official title used then).

Tsar Peter's penchant for Westernization didn't help matters any either.

But, as you say, this occurred before Peter and with his Father, Tsar Alexis and his politics regarding becoming the new Orthodox Byzantine Emperor where he thought the "way to go" was to impose the Greek traditions on the Russian church via Patriarch Nicon - himself a Hellenophile Russian.

From a Slavic point of view, the Latin devotions meshed well with the "heart-rending" spirituality of the Eastern Slavs who had become estranged from their historic spirituality in the Orthodoxy of bygone days.

The fact of schism between East and West did not prevent Orthodox churchmen at the time from borrowing heavily from the West's devotional menu.

Perhaps with the emphasis on educational, political and cultural exchange with western Europe - the signal was given them that this was the way to go.

But what you say about the crisis in Russian society and the Orthodox Church at the time is more than correct.

That the Russia of those days didn't formally come into union with Rome was due to politics alone.

The Russia of the Baroque Period had embraced a Latinized spirituality in an effort to become an accepted member of the European community.

It was Peter and his successors who saw in Orthodoxy a certain "primitivism" that was not as "enlightened" or "advanced" as the Jesuit Catholicism, Caroline Anglicanism and Continental Lutheranism of the Europe of the time.

Kissing your right hand, I again ask for your blessing,

Alex

I voted "no" because in reality I see many examples of being "Roman Catholic of the Eastern Rite".

I am happy to continue to work diligently albeit slowly in correcting this.

With Best Wishes to All!

Stefan-Ivan

I think that one could very possibly draw Walt's conclusions from visiting our humble parish in Grand Rapids.

In reality just because our Bishops mandate something does not automatically insure that the clergy and/or faithful will follow it.

With Best Wishes,
Stefan-Ivan