www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Here we go again!

I have to redirect myself here. This is not directly Pope Benedict's problem. This is Archbishop Niederauer's problem. If he doesn't step up to the plate he's in trouble and he's behind in the count.

Then what is the point of the Pope having universal, immediate, ordinary, and supreme jurisdiction over every Church in doctrinal and disciplinary matters? And is this really a minor problem? And since the Archbishop's brother bishops won't do anything, then isn't the Pope supposed to step in according to Catholic ecclesiology? Would the national conference of Catholic bishops have the authority then to remove Archbishop Niedeneuer and take emergency action?
I honestly don't see this as a less important problem. Especially since this is not an isolated case and everyone knows it. This kind of thing is rampant in Catholic Churches in the west. The media just doesn't have the time, the resources, or the interest to document it all.

Joe

It's a scandal within his archdiocese and he has no room for a pocket veto. Omission would be equivalent to a condonation. The morality of the situation is not debatable. What's worse is that it will be internationally shown to the world through the BBC.

I believe the Archbishop still has time to do something about this.

Let's wait for the end of his pontificate to see. The problems with the American bishops could occupy all of his time. It does not, that is his discretion.

Terry

Let me put it in an eastern perspective. A while back there was a widely discussed case of where 2 men were married by a Russian Orthodox priest in Russia. Within a matter of weeks or even less, the "priest" was defrocked and excommunicated, the Parish in which this abomination took place was bulldozed and the ground sown with salt, so that nothing will ever grow there as a reminder of the abomination that took place there. This is how we in the East would act.

I think that wouldn't fly in the touchy feely West.

But I do have to respect how Orthodoxy handles these things.

The gay pride parade was canceled in Moscow but it was in Rome when I was there. (And no I wasn't there as a participant! )

A bit theatrical but effective I imagine.

Joe

I got into a bit of trouble the last time I commented on this type of thing.

So all I will say is Gospodi Pomiluj!

Asked:


And Answered:

-- John

Asked:


And answered:



-- John

So, I draw several conclusions from all of this.

(1) Verbally condoning homosexuality will get a person in trouble with the Vatican quicker than actually condoning it.

(2) There is, apparently, an enormous percentage of Catholic clergy (including senior clergy) who are compromised by this. Put another way, there must be an enormous shortage of morally conservative clergy in the Catholic Church today. Or, perhaps, the pope is not truly, fully in power. Otherwise, a conservative pope like Ratzinger / Benedict the 16th would have replaced the clergy who failed to keep Catholic practices with morally conservative clergy.

(3) Homosexuality is hugely more important to conservatives than other things they regard as sins, as evidenced (yet again) by the abundance and the intensity of angry responses posted to this thread.

(4) I'm getting fed up. I'm not even gay. But, I think there are much more important things for the Church to be outraged about. Excommunicate me if you like, but I just don't see homosexuality as that big of a deal. Killing a little kid through abortion, or through an unjustified war, or poverty? That's a big deal. Two gays who want to live their lives in peace? I say: God bless them. The world (and this country) are in danger of falling into worse war, more extensive poverty, and devastating climate change; but we --like Nero fiddling while Rome burned-- we are worried about the gays. This is crazy.

-- John

Alexandr:

Zan is absolutely on the money. Some years ago in my mother's diocese there was an abuse going on and I wrote to the Metropolitan of Pennsylvania about it. He sent me a very cordial letter with a copy of the letter he'd sent to my bishop, who in turn sent me a copy of the reply that he sent back to the Cardinal and his own forward to the bishop of the place. Nothing was ever done about it--both brother bishops were ignored.

Each Catholic bishop has a direct relationship with the Pope, but no real canonical relationship to any other bishop in the country he lives in. That's why there is so much diversity in implementing anything that Rome mandates. It is far more chaotic than it might apper at first glance.

BOB

BOB

John,

The only thing that really outrages me is the sacriledge committed. These are not men who are struggling to live with their sexuality and who are coming to the Church for help and healing. These men belong to a notoriously anti-Catholic group and their manner of dress is intentionally meant to mock religious faith. Given them communion would be like giving communion to someone who just spit on the host or the holy chalice.

Joe

I agree.

Yet, to me there is a much larger and more important point in this thread: its mere existence.

I'm amazed and outraged at how often the topic of gays comes up at this forum, again and again and again. And, it is usually to condemn them or criticize them or to become angry with them.

Why the gays? Why are the gays such a consistent target of Christian hate?

Why can't a month go by without somebody posting a thread about how bad the gays are?

Why not the abortionists? They kill small children.

Why not the transnational corporations? They impoverish people around the world for their own profits -- including by shipping American jobs overseas to cheaper workers.

Why not this d##n war, which threatens the lives of so many people (including half of my nephews)?

Why not a lack of universal, affordable health care, which causes many people to suffer, become poor and to die?

Why not environmental degradation, which made it 75 degrees Fahrenheit in northwest Ohio yesterday (18 October 2007), which is 20 - 25 degrees above normal, and which caused tornadoes and storms across the Midwest last night?

Why not a host of other issues? Why don't they get a new thread every other week and pages of anger-filled posts?

Why. The. Gays.

?

I was going to send this to you as a private message, Joe, but I think I need to post this to everyone here.

To All of You:

Do you realize how bizarre this looks? On the one hand, there are a number of serious issues that affect hundreds of millions of people with suffering, poverty and death. On the other hand, there are some freaks in the city of San Francisco (is that even news?) who probably need psychiatric care and who mock a religious ritual. They aren't even typical of most gay people! And yet, it is the gays who get a new thread at this forum about every month (perhaps more frequently), in which they are inevitably criticized and condemned with pages of posts that are filled with contempt and anger. Don't you think that is odd? Don't you think it is perhaps even pathological? Don't those other issues --which threaten hundreds of millions people-- are worth at least half of the attention and outrage that this forum gives to the gays? And don't you think this hatred of one group contradicts Christ's commandment to love everyone ?

I really don't know if I can become an Orthodox Christian --or any kind of Eastern Christian-- anymore. What seems to matter most to Eastern Christians is the liturgy, tradition, relations with the Roman Catholics, obscure points of theology . . . and hating the gays. It's bizarre. And there are more important things to me than this.

-- John