www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Maronite madness

You have to realize that that is only a fringe group within (and some without i.e. in schism) the Roman Rite. The vast majority of traditionalists DO accept the validity of the Novus Ordo Mass. As for detesting the liturgy: it is not the liturgy itself that is hated, but the abuses.

The documents of the Second Vatican Council stated that Gregorian Chant was to be encouraged and take a place of primacy in the Roman Liturgy; instead we got guitar music, &c.

If you have an interest, I recommend this site: http://thenewliturgicalmovement.blogspot.com/

It's the most popular and influential website for Roman Rite liturgical reform in the English-speaking world. They have many scholars contributing articles. I also know clergy who check it a few times a day...

I'm actually very glad that I got criticism as I took to searching the web and just found a printing of the text of the old Maronite Mass:

http://mtbooks.org/html/mtpubs.htm

The photograhs you posted are from a true low point in the history of the Maonite liturgy. For the past 30 years the Patriarchate has been in the process of renewing proper Syriac customs and rites, replacing the overt latinization of previous centuries. The process is by no means complete, and there have ben bumps along the way, especially outside of Lebanon. A video on the internet, and a couple of antique photographs are not the full story, nor are they a sufficent basis to build a critique on.

From a Syro-Indian perspective, the Maronite have come a LONG way - thank God. They have removed much of the latinisation and restored many of the Syriac elements. I would have much preferred the priest to be facing the "proper way", but who knows, perhaps the Latin altar was facing East toward the people - in that case, the priest was correct to face East.

Of course, there could always be some improvement, but some of the criticism is unwarranted - such as Glory "Be" - in a Syriac to English translation, "Be" is not necessarily incorrect the verb "to be" can be translated as "is" or even omitted since it is unnecessary in English - but as far as I am aware, the Syriac and Indian Orthodox and Catholics translate to "Glory be" in English.

I made my "Glory Be" comments because I think it is perfectly ok.
Don't know why the Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Catholic Church of America removed it from the RDL.

Ungcsertezs

Well this then begs another question. If the Maronite liturgy has traditionally been a synthesis of the Syriac and Roman Rites, and this has been its distinguishing characteristic over the centuries, is it wrong to change it to be either more "Syrian" or more "Latin"? And if it is changed to be more towards the Syriac, should not the Maronites then be just absorbed into the Syrian Catholic Church? Also, what about the Novus Ordo Latin Rite innovations into their liturgy, are these perceived as "all right" by most of you?

I'm not trying to be facetious, I'm simply curious what people think.

I once asked an outstanding Maronite who will here be nameless what the difference is between the Maronite Church and the Syrian Catholic Church. His answer was a classic: "Their ecclesiality is different"! Just what the verbiage might mean, I'm sure I don't know.

Fr. Serge

The Maronite Church has not traditionally been a synthesis of the Syriac and Roman Rites. It was progessively Latinized from the 1700's onward,usually at the instigation of Popes and Papal Legates. Thankfully the greater majority of these were in externals. AS to being absorbed, why would one autonomous Church with a distinct history and identity be absorbed into another? With that thinking all Churches of the Byzantine Tradition shouyld be absorbed into the Melkite Patriarchate. As to NO innovations, you sem to forget they are celebrating a Maronite Liturgy for Latin Catholics in a Latin Church so from your list many may be accomodations to that. The congregation shaking hands certainly is because Maronite laity exchange the peace the same way the priest and servers did. Because of your list the only two I am familiar with are facing the people and women being permitted to read the Epistle. It is not uncommon for women to read the Epistle among the Orthodox either.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The Nicene Creed said rather than sung? Greek Orthodox do it. Singing the Creed is an East-Slavic innovation, possibly inspired by Latin usage.

Stephen R.

Said Creed? How interesting. I did not know.

Since I have never attended a pre-VCII Maronite Mass I can only go by what texts are available.

"this then begs the question(s): Do Eastern Catholics NOT critique their own liturgy? And if so, how is a standard maintained? Are Eastern Catholics more tolerant of changes to their liturgy?"

Btzantophile posted this earlier. The answers are yes, Easterc Catholics do critique their own ligurgy. Read most of Forum # 8. How is a standard maintained? Again, read most of forum # 8. Are Eastern Catholics more tolerant of changes to their liturgy? At the risk of being repetetive, read most of forum # 8.

I'll save you some time, even though it is interestesting reading--we do critique our liturgy. Quite severely and sometimes with great vitriol. Standards seems to be a word that is missing from some Eastern Catholic's vocabulary and as far as being tolerant to changes in our liturgy---well, let's say some are more Christian like than others in expressing their opinions. But do read most of forum # 8. It's very interesting.

Tim