www.byzcath.org Forums General Discussions Town Hall Putiin's espionage Church: The Russian Orthodox Church Abroad?

ROCOR has also had very good success at evangelization and new growth in the US which has little to do with Russian politics.

You are absolutely correct on this issue. Actually, if you held that the efficacy of the sacraments were dependent upon the priest being in the "state of Grace", you would be guilty of the ancient heresy of Donatism! This is why I can see where the author of the article may be right about the characters he describes, but on the other hand, these people are playing "fast and loose" with the "things of God", and things might not turn out the way they plan it ("God draws straight lines with crooked pencils"). I remember hearing about the case of Metropolitan Nikodim of the Moscow Patriarchate. He was a contemporary of Patriarch Pimen. He was clearly KGB, and an atheist playing at being Metropolitan. But, in order to act out his part, he had to read Scripture and be familiar with it. He ended up having a true conversion experience. He later made a pilgrimage to Fatima and expressed his opinion that the Fatima events and messages were real. He died of a heart attack while visitng Pope John Paul I (Albino Luciani-not Karol Wojtyla), and reportedly received Final Anointing from him. So, despite what the former KGB officer writes, and I believe he tells the truth, I still think that, in the long run, Russia will become a light for the rest of the world. Some years ago, I read a book on Fatima by the late Francis Johnston, an English Catholic writer. He tells the story of a German woman who was active in promoting the Fatima message. She had the privilege of meeting with Sr. Lucia. She asked the nun if God had allowed her to know how the "conversion of Russia" would occur. Sr. Lucia replied that Russia would convert by returning to Russian Orthodoxy, and then, subsequently, there would be a re-establishment of communion with Rome by the Russian Church. Something to look forward to!

Dn. Robert

Deacon Robert, in nutshell what you are saying is "how do we not throw the baby out with the bathwater".

May I also add:

"How do we convey the message to the baby that she/he is swimming in a 'blackpool' ?

IF.

To continue in the same direction, Christ does tell us in the Gospels about those at the Last Judgment who will argue "but we fed at Your Table," meaning that they had regularly communed in the Holy Mysteries. Playing "fast and loose with the things of God" does carry an eternal price tht should make each of us remember to approach them with fear and trembling.

I can almost imagine another scenario where these people are actually faced by Christ and have that "sinking feeling" one gets in the pit of one's stomach when one realizes that something one had denied turns out to be true and we've got to admit to it--and there are severe consequences.

I have often imagined Christ challenging me at my personal judgement about the times I have approachd the Holy Mysteries to receive in the hand and having Him ask me "How did you dare touch Me!"

On the other hand, Father Deacon, as you so rightly put it, they might find themselves having an experience as St Paul had one on the road to Damascus: God reaches down into that deep part of us and turns on His Divine and Uncreated Light, and then we melt.

In Christ,

BOB

God grant that Sr. Lucia had a real revelation on this. Russia's
re-conversion to Christ be an event of incalculable importance
for the world.

Jean Francois;

I suspect that the baby, or a lot of the babies, have a pretty
good idea of what they are swimming in. I do not dispute your
assertion that many, probably most, of the current R-O hierarchs
are profoundly compromised by cooperation with the KGB.This leaves all sorts of questions. For example, how many of them
are believers who compromised themselves in order to be safe,
to have a more agreeable life, to be made a bishop. If some of
them are atheists, which is perfectly possible, what incredibly
boring and empty lives they must lead! Can you imagine yourself
an atheist presiding over All Night Vigils?

But what is to be done? Russians do not appreciate the intervention of foreigners in their affairs. Who would?
Only they themselves can work this out. Monasticism has
come back to Russia. Are the men and women in them there
to promote a return of the Soviet or Russian Imperial State?
Not much you can do about that in a monastery.
Where must the future Russian bishops come from? The monasteries.

I must totally dissent from your view of ROCOR. According to
Wikipedia ROCOR has less than five hundred parishes in the whole
world and about 400,00 members. Plus twenty monasteries.
Is this the profile of an organization that is going to threaten
anybody's national security? And the roots of ROCOR are
in anti-Bolshevism. If Comrade Putin is planing a return
to Marxism, he isn't going to get much help from them.
If he is planning a return to traditional Russian imperialism,
they are a pretty unimpressive-looking tool.

Edmac

If we are just talking about Russian nationalism, I wouldn't feel the least bit threatened, as an American.

Interestingly, I attended a lecture a few weeks ago by ROCOR Bishop Peter (Lukianov) of Cleveland. He sees the Church merger as a means of building up Russia's future role as the great "light for the world", both in the homeland, and in the Diaspora. If Patriarch Alexei and President Putin were truly Orthodox, I could see where this would be the case, almost immediately. Even if they are not, in the long run, I still think this will be the case. In the short run, though, things might get a bit dicey.

Dn. Robert

A few words about Buchanan - he regards anyone who disagrees with him as a "neocon", the dirtiest word in his lexicon.

So Buchanan blames Bush for restarting the cold war (in part) because NATO expanded by including Poland and a few other Central European counties that were under the thumb of Moscow for centuries. Buchanan believes in Fortress America.

Ukraine is in the process of determining its own destiny, a process long denied to her by her neighbors.

Didn't the Russian Orthodox Church open up a parish in Havana not long ago with Castro's approval?

I doubt if the ROC can be a full fledged part of the Federal Security Service spy network. Having said that, the KGB was the world's most efficient and effective espionage organization and it has not disappeared.

I must say that I find the title of this thread to be offensive to the utmost degree. I am sure that if I started a thread entitled, "The Pope's anti-Orthodox Shock troops: The Ukrainian Catholic Church, I would be met with howls of disapproval.

As far as the content, let me just say that anyone who actually believes this drivel gets my vote for the Sen Joe McCarthy Russophobe Award. But then again, I just consider the source.

Alexandr (ROCOR) You know, that hotbed of communist sympathizers!

If you're interested in learning about the history of the KGB, there are multiple sources. I found this to be interesting: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/s...ooks&field-author=Vasili%20Mitrokhin

This is absolutely one of the funniest things I've read in a while. It would only be better if it warned that people's preciously bodily fluids are being sapped and impurified.

I think you have an elliptical clause: "It would only be better if it warned that people's precious body fluids are being sapped and impurified [by aliens]."

The Good news is that in the Transcarpathian Region of Ukraine (Zakarpatska Oblast) the Greek Catholic Church is taking a leading role in fighting 'Putin's Espionage Church Abroad'. No longer will Moscow's Tsars and Commissars play a dominant role outside of Muscovy (well maybe for some here in the USA).

I.F.

UOC-MP Orthodox and Greek Catholics Clash in Transcarpathian Tiachiv
31.10.2007, [10:38] // Conflict //

Tiachiv, Transcarpathian Region � On 30 October 2007, supporters of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate (UOC-MP) conducted a massive Way of the Cross in the town of Tiachiv, where, according to Ruslan Zaporiz�kyi, leader of the Army of Faithful Cossacks of the Black Sea and church member, supporters of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (UGCC) occupied the Orthodox Church of the Holy Protection in August. nr2.ru reported the story.

�Initially, the Orthodox made concessions to the Uniates and agreed to hold alternative liturgies in the church building. However, later, the Greek Catholics installed their locks on the door and did not let the Orthodox in. In fact, it was an illegal seizure of the church building,� he claims.

�After that, the Uniates carried out all the Orthodox icons and priests� vestments and through them outside, defiling the church. Authorities are doing nothing about this criminal act of taking away the church,� insisted Zaporiz�kyi.

In his commentary for RISU�s Ukrainian-language site, Deacon Peter Kresnicki of the UGCC, who is the church pastor, stressed that until 1948 the church belonged to the UGCC and was named the Church of the Assumption of the Holy Mary. The church is currently engaged in a law suit challenging Order #151 of the Tiachiv Regional Council, in accordance with which the church building was transferred to the UOC-MP in 1991. Authorities, allegedly favoring the UOC-MP, gave the Greek Catholics no access to the archives and, thus, deprived them of any possibility to prove their rights for the church.

According to Father Peter, the conflict escalated on 29 August after a church holiday when the Greek Catholics were not allowed into the church and prayed 40 days outside. Representatives of the UOC-MP refused to negotiate. Now the Greek Catholic community is trying to resolve the conflict in court.


� http://www.nr2.ru/crimea/147168.html

Sorry, I don't think the news that Christians are physically fighting eachother is good news.

My impression is that when the courts make these decisions regarding a specific church in a village, a vote is organised to consider the wishes of the local population. If the local people wanted the church to remain Orthodox then the church should remain with the Orthodox. But now it seems that there is a new court case. This is a difficult situation. It is hard for us here in North America sitting in front of our computers to really know what is going on. Maybe we should all pray that a just and fair decision is made by the courts.

It's hard for me to find a better example of how religion can go from being something that motivates us to love, to something that drives us to hate. Both the issue in Ukraine and your own characterizations and generalizations of an entire body of faithful I find personally sickening.

I think this is good news: a conference in Ukraine dealing with religious tolerance.