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What's a literal translation (I know the Marian Hymnal version) of this refrain? This is what I came up with:

"How beautiful and dear, Mary of the Rosary,
in God's temple on the altar
pure white lily."

Eh? Anyone know the history of this hymn, and what exactly the refrain is talking about?

(Sorry if this isn't the right part of the forum to post this!)

Dave

Chtec,

In the 1978 "blue book" Rev. Levkulic English translation it reads:

:With our heart's devotion true,
Hymns and prayers (i.e. The Rosary, 16th cent. Latin influence) we offer you.
Temple for His birth,
Fairest flower of earth (i.e. Lily);
Worthy of all praises due.

These "para-liturgical hymns" usually were not a direct translation. Should I say these Rev. Levkulic translations were "wrong" or not "politically-correct"? As the "Church Lady" (aka Dana Carvey) used to say, "Isn't that special!" (ha ha)

Ungcsertezs

Ungcsertezs

I wouldn't call that English version "wrong" (and don't get the PC remark); but I wouldn't call it good, either.

The last line makes me cringe - like Paul McCartney's lyric "in this ever-changing world in which we live in". But the worst aspect is the elimination of the imagery, rich in meaning,. of the lily and the rose (the rosary being a spiritual bouquet of roses). From Online Etymology Dictionary:
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?l=r&p=18

These vivid and often used symbols for Mary - lily and rose - that appear in this hymn are hacked out of the English. Ouch.

I am a little surprised (apart from the protoevangelum) by this hymn which suggests lilies for decoration on the altar being an annunciation hymn. My oriental lilies bloom for the feast of the dormition.

Djs,

It was being sarcastic.

Just think much is lost when those Rusyn hymns are sung in English. They were composed in the mixed language of Rusyn dialect and Church Slavonic. It just doesn't translate the "duch" when sung in English.

Ungcsertezs

Nah! We just need artful renderings in English.
And that is no simple task.

Djs,

But will the IEMC rework these hymns in a new and improved English version? Or will we in the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Archeparchial Metropolitan Church in America author new, American Byzantine Catholic "paraliturgical" hymns to replace thr traditional Rusyn-Slavonic "paraliturgical" hymns?

Ungcsertezs

Professor Thompson is writing a whole new repertoire of hymns to the traditional Carpatho-Rusyn melodies for the Marian hymns and the other hymns. They are very good and have caught on like wildfire in Pittsburgh. Thompson�s work is good and very easy to sing. I�m glad the bishops chose a professional to do this work. Finally we will have a liturgy we can call our own and music that is professional grade.

Ung,

There has been no attempt whatsover to replace the current corpus of paraliturgical hymnody, either by Professor Thompson or by the Inter-Eparchial Liturgical Commission or the Inter-Eparchial Musical Commission.

NO ONE is likely to replace any of these hymns any time soon - though there are certainly lots of hymns in Slavonic we are NOT singing, and if better translations into English of the old hymns arise, who knows that might happen? But I seriously doubt the IEMC would spend time on them.
Unlike the liturgical hymns, there is no need for our "spiritual songs" to be in accord with anything other than the basic tenets of the Faith.

That having been said, there are TONS of feasts for which we have no good hymns, and since I set up a website for the MCI I've gotten many requests for hymns for particular feastdays, using familiar melodies. AND we're trying to reintroduce the singing of whole psalms as well . So if you have suggestions, make 'em!

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

UC:

See for yourself: here are the hymns [metropolitancantorinstitute.org] posted so far at the MCI. Texts appropriate to the day are set to a half-dozen familiar tunes.

ByzKath, Djs,

So, what you both are saying, if I'm correct, that the Jumba/Levkulic Marian Hymnal should still be used, Slavonic verses usage for those Archeparchial parishes that want to use Slavonic, the English verses usage for all other parishes, Hey/Ajno/Tak??

But, correct me if I'm wrong, the Jumba/Levkulic Hymnal isn't officially used by the MCI, Hey/Ajno/Tak??

I Would like an official Archeparchial (in writing) ruling on this hymnal, if at all possible.

Ungcsertezs

For an official Archeparchial ruling, you'll have to ask the official Archbishop but yes, that is what we're saying. Truly, Ung, I've never heard anyone even hint (as you do) that they are somehow banned!

I haven't heard the hymns in the Marian hymnal used AT the Metropolitan Cantor Institute because (a) they're not part of the Divine Liturgy, Vespers, Matins, baptism/weddings/funerals, etc., and (b) practically everyone at the MCI classes knows then anyway (at least the commonly sung ones). I had the immediate permission of the director of the MCI to include all the hymns in the Marian Hymnal on the MCI website, which is why I asked if anyone had a good scanned copy. Things take time; help is appreciated.

Furthermore, it was from Professor Thompson of the MCI that I found out about the more recent collections of Rusyn hymnody coming from Europe (such as Father Stefan Papp's _Grekokatolicki Duchov�i Pis�i_). Finally - remember that it is the Byzantine Seminary Press that actually PRINTED the Marian Hymnal, and holds the copyright. For something that's not actually a liturgical text, this collection has wide acceptance, and for all that it could be improved in places, I think you're barking up the wrong tree if you're expecting that it is being suppressed in the Metropolia.

*whew*

Yours in Christ,
Jeff Mierzejewski

ByzKath,

Why are they not used at the MCI classes? What English "paraliturgical" hymns are sung at the MCI? It has already been stated that although the are unique to the Uniate and Orthodox Uniates (i.e. ACROD, etc.) and not Orthodoxy in general and that "unofficially", they are used in every parish of the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Archeparchy, it seems strange that these "paraliturgical" hymns are not taught (to new members of the RBCA, converts,etc.)at the MCI.

Ungcsertezs (who is thankful for Met. Nicholas for the beautiful (Slavonic and English) Marian hymns sung at last Sunday's Camp Nazareth
Dormition Pilgrimage, Djakuju!)

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Mr. Ung-Certez,

It puzzles me greatly that you keep asking questions about the Metropolitan Cantor Institute but never actually come to see what transpires.

If you had come, you would know that it is the custom of the Seminary to end every service (either Divine Liturgy or Hours of Praise) with a hymn to the Theotokos, taken from the Marian Hymnal.

As to why we don't have a class on hymnody: the answer would be, there's not enough time. We do have music elective course called "Rusyn Hymnody," however.

Prof. J. Michael Thompson
Byzantine Catholic Seminary
Pittsburgh, PA