www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine Rite - the oldest one?

Is that assumption true?

If the story is correct that the Liturgy of St. John of Chrysostom is just a revision of the Liturgy of St. Basil the Great which itself is just a revision of the Liturgy of St. James the Brother of the Lord. Then yes it is because it is direct from Jerusalem.

Now, some also think that the Anaphora of Addai and Mari might be the most ancient. I'll leave this to the "Church Geeks"* to hammer this one out.


*A term of endearment that Gordo has taken upon himself.

Gordo, did I tell you that you are awesome today?

LOL!

Church Geeks-R-Us!

I have heard that the Ancient Rite of Rome is one of the more ancient liturgies... but perhaps the Byzantine is by virtue of its roots in Antioch by extension Jerusalem.

Any liturgical scholars (read "Church Geeks Extraordinaire") want to comment?

Gordo

Unfortunately the story is not correct. The Byzantine Rite is not the most ancient. It cannot be said to exist until St. Constantine and that is the earliest. Justinian's erection of Holy Wisdom Cathedral is the defining moment that forever molded the Byzantine Rite into what it is today. The Roman and Assyrian Rites are both more ancient.

Father Deacon Lance,

Are you referring to the current usage of the TLM or the Mass of St. Hippolitus which is very similar to parts of the NO?

The Tridentine Liturgy is certainly not as acient as the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom. There are other liturgies which even predate the Roman Liturgy.
Stephanos I

The Liturgy of Mar Mari and Addai and the Syriac Liturgy of St. James are the most ancient Liturgies, remnants/pieces of these can be seen in all other Liturgies worldwide.

This has been discussed ad nauseam in a few threads. I'm sure we could dig them up.

The way I understand it, Addai and Mari might be the oldest, as well as the Roman. The Roman Rite strictly speaking is apparently older than the Byzantine, but there is a gap between 300 AD and 600 BC during which a good bit seems to have changed in the Roman Rite, but we can't be sure exactly when.

I think I have that right...

It is really all very subjective...how much change does a Rite undergo to be considered very different than that which originally spawned it? Clearly lace and fiddleback chasubles weren't around in 500 BC, but all rites have undergone some external (and textual) revisions.

Alexis

...500BC?

U-C

He did say it was the oldest.

"The way I understand it, Addai and Mari might be the oldest"

Where could one find copies of these rites? I would be very interested in reading them. And which Roman Rite are we talking about? There are more than one. And I don't mean the Ambrosian Rite versus the one in Rome. I agree that there are various definitions of "oldest rites." And there did apper to be some changes between 300AD and 600AD. But which of the Roman RItes are we talking about?

Tim

The Roman Canon. The Roman mass itself, as we all know, has a several major overhauls over the centuries.

The Liturgy of Mar Mari and Addai is celebrated by the Assyrian Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholic Church, and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (somewhat latinised).

The Syriac Liturgy of St. James is celebrated by the Syriac Catholic Church, Syriac Orthodox Church, Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, the Malankara Orthodox Church, and (in a somewhat latinised form) by the Maronite Catholic Church.

Whoops, BC means AD, obviously!

I thought there was just one Roman Rite, with certain Uses (like the Sarum), which do not constitute a different Rite.

There are different rites within the Roman Church, like the Mozarabic, Ambrosian, Roman, Dominican, Carthusian, etc. etc...but none of those are the Roman Rite, just Rites within the Roman Church.

Whereas in the East many different Churches share one Rite (Byzantine), in the Roman Church many different Rites inhabit one sui iuris Church (Roman).

Alexis

Dr. Eric,


I think the so-called "Mass of St. Hippolytus", supposedly incorporated into the NO as EP II has been officially "exploded" by real scholars as a "scholarly fiction" (euphemistically speaking).

On a way earlier thread, a Liturgy of St. Peter, with an anaphora that seems to be a Greek version/original of the Roman Canon, but with other parts akin to the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom, was posted with the following URL, but it no longer "links": http://www.odox.net/Liturgy1-Sarum.htm.

Michael