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Mar 25th, 2025
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Joined: Feb 2002
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Just what was fomerly the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church,which now calls itself the Sui Juris Metropolitan Byzantine Catholic Church of America.
Ungcsertezs ...Or is it Sui Juris Byzantine Metropolitan Church of America? Ungcsertezs
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Neither, from archeparchy.org: The Byzantine Metropolitan Church sui iuris of Pittsburgh was established as the Exarchate of Pittsburgh in 1924. This Exarchate expanded to become the Eparchy of Pittsburgh and the Eparchy of Passaic in 1963.
Full status as a Metropolitan Church was granted in 1969 with the designation of the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh, the Eparchy of Passaic, the Eparchy of Parma and, later, the Eparchy of Van Nuys.
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What hidden knowledge do you posses that makes you presume change will cease to occur in your new church? Did Christ not say, "Behold, I make all things new?" Change is one of the constants of life and without it, the advancement of our mystical, physical, and future stalemates. I could continue on with this, but I know (and expect) that my point of view is not one that fits your idea of the Ruthenian Faith. If you have changed to Orthodox, then perhaps you should find an Orthodox Message board instead of lingering on this Catholic one.
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Who stated this was a "Catholic" forum? Last time I checked it was the "Byzantine Forum" discussing the "Christian East" (which is largely not in communion with the Catholic Church) and there are as many regular Orthodox posters here as those who profess themselves to be "Catholic".
At least there is a place for some kind of dialogue regarding the RDL - it is non-existent elsewhere in spite of comments such as those above intended to squelch such discussion. Matthew should understand that in spite of the mandates there are many (not just laity) who are dissatisfied with the RDL.
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Who said it's a Catholic Forum? I don't know. I guess the domain name, "Byzcath.com" threw me off. Maybe you can enlightnen us as to what "Cath" means.
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Matthew,
May I suggest that you read the User Agreement. Diak is correct, this is not an exclusive Catholic board, but rather a discussion board between Christians of different traditions.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
Everyone baptized into Christ should pass progressively through all the stages of Christ's own life, for in baptism he receives the power so to progress, and through the commandments he can discover and learn how to accomplish such progression. - Saint Gregory of Sinai
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Did Christ not say, "Behold, I make all things new?" Indeed! But He did not say "Behold, I make all things politically correct."  If you have changed to Orthodox, then perhaps you should find an Orthodox Message board instead of lingering on this Catholic one. I am Catholic......Orthodox Catholic! 
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He also said, "I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it." He also said to his Apostles and to their successors, our Bishops, "I give you the Holy Spirit."
I think there is a duty incumbent upon all Orthodox Catholics to trust the gifts of the Holy Spirit that have been given to Bishops and to submit to their legitimate authority, especially when the exercise of that authority has received approval from their legitimate, God-ordained, Spirit-filled Apostolic overseers.
For an individual or group of individuals to decide that they know better than the Bishops is the essence of Protestant thought.
Last edited by PrJ; 10/29/07 02:30 PM.
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John Member
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He also said, "I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it." He also said to his Apostles and to their successors, our Bishops, "I give you the Holy Spirit."
I think there is a duty incumbent upon all Orthodox Catholics to trust the gifts of the Holy Spirit that have been given to Bishops and to submit to their legitimate authority, especially when the exercise of that authority has received approval from their legitimate, God-ordained, Spirit-filled Apostolic overseers.
For an individual or group of individuals to decide that they know better than the Bishops is the essence of Protestant thought. It should be very clear by now that there are major problems with the Revised Divine Liturgy, from incorrect rubrics to incorrect translations to awkward music. It is my understanding (from people I talk with and my own observation) that the Revised Divine Liturgy is imploding much more quickly then any of us expected. I do know that appeals to Rome are being heard, and that is very likely that the Holy Father will respond favorably to these appeals. [Can anyone see him rejecting an appeal for our priests to celebrate what remains the official Ruthenian Divine Liturgy when he has just forcefully guaranteed the right of Latin-Rite priests to pray the extraordinary form of the Latin Mass (the John XXIII Missal)? Especially when the other Churches of the Ruthenian recension are all reaffirming the official books and seeking that we choose the unity of the official Ruthenian recension?] Perhaps the real question here is about why the bishops chose to reject the official Ruthenian recension promulgated by Rome, and the various directives regarding authentic Liturgy and accurate translations. Praise God for �Sensus Fidelium�. We are seeing it at work. Keep praying for the Holy Father and for our bishops. Pray also for those who prepared the Revision as they did mean well. Some of their work is good and can be used in the future. 
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For an individual or group of individuals to decide that they know better than the Bishops is the essence of Protestant thought. I agree, Bishop Robert Moskal (UGCC of Parma) has said many times, including in a letter below that we should not shy away from the use of the word "orthodox". Would those in the UGCC who want to follow the BCA practice of precluding the word 'orthodox' be people that you would consider Protestant? During the Divine Liturgy we pray for everyone. Your question undoubtedly is prompted because of some people�s understanding or perception of the term "Orthodox". The English term is derived from the Greek Orthododokeo which means to teach rightly. In a passive sense, it is applied to those who had been "rightly taught", hence "true believing". It seems to me that when this Greek term was translated into Church-Slavonic (or ancient Bulgarian), the translator misinterpreted the second half of the verb Dokeo (to teach-Doksia participle) and confused it with the Greek word (to glorify) -- Doksia (glory), so that many have come to understand the word "Orthodox" as meaning "true -- worshipers" or those "rightly glorifying God". Hence, the word: Pravoslavnyj.
Curious, are you confused by now? Who wouldn't be! Be as it may, the word "Orthodox" has been used throughout the history of the church to describe the Faith of the Church. It appears in the writings of the Fathers of the Church, as well as in the Liturgies of both the Eastern and Western Churches. In the old Latin text of the Roman Catholic Mass, the people prayed "pro orthoxis fidelibus" i.e. for "Orthodox Christians", meaning the faithful who professed the accurate teachings of the Faith. However, since the word "Orthodox" originated in the Eastern Church(es), it was and has been widely used. For us to deny that our Faith is Orthodox, would be negating or re-writing the history of the Church and the terminology which the Church has used and uses.
In modern day Ukraine, many people, not wanting to be confused with the Orthodox Church, especially the Russian Church, argue against the use of the word "Orthodox". The late Patriarch Joseph Slipyi firmly stood on the ground that we must not abandon the use of this word at all costs, because it leads to a correct understanding of our very identity. We can understand that with the gradual estrangement of Eastern Christians from Western Christians, that some misunderstanding can easily arise especially since the term "Orthodox" has shifted in popular parlance from describing The Faith to describing the Church. Nonetheless, we strive to overcome misunderstandings and continue to use the word Orthodox properly, especially in our own day and age to overcome the difficulties of the past and pray for the unity of all the true -- believers in the One Church of Jesus Christ. The communion, in the love of Christ, of all "Orthodox churches" in the Universal Church is the one, holy, apostolic and catholic Church of Jesus Christ, who is the Head of the Church. Our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, has underscored many times that we are "Orthodox in Faith, and Catholic in the bonds of love."
Yours In Christ,
+Bishop Robert
Great Fast 2004 By the way, were Bishop Elko's directives to take down icon screens proper or were those who disagreed Protestant? Also, has Vespers and Matins at St. Luke's been discontinued in the past year? I thought that they used to be celebrated there? Earlier in the thread you mentioned 'services', did you only mean the Divine Liturgy or Vespers and Matins as well?  Monomakh
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Matthew,
May I suggest that you read the User Agreement. Diak is correct, this is not an exclusive Catholic board, but rather a discussion board between Christians of different traditions.
In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator I will also reaffirm this. Since The Byzantine Forum went online in 1998 it has always been simply a Christian Forum open to all, with an emphasis on the Christian East. A layman (that's me!) in the Byzantine Catholic Church serves as owner and host. That means that I need to make sure the coffee is fresh and the place is kept clean (charitable). John
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That is the beauty and spiritual genius of the Catholic ecclesiological framework. Everyone is accountable ...
I just wanted however to note that your statement about "major" problems being "very clear" that I would disagree. As I have written frequently, I "LOVE" the New Liturgy and, at least on a local level, have found it to be encouraging of spiritual life and vitality among the lay people. Far from imploding, I think it is the beginnings of an explosion of spiritual and numerical growth for the Church.
I should also note that my "sources" indicate that there is very little chance that the RDL will ever be rescinded. Liberty to use an older form MAY be extended to those who wish it, but it is "very clear" that the RDL is here to stay. For that, I thank God!
Last edited by PrJ; 10/29/07 03:11 PM.
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He also said, "I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it." He also said to his Apostles and to their successors, our Bishops, "I give you the Holy Spirit."
I think there is a duty incumbent upon all Orthodox Catholics to trust the gifts of the Holy Spirit that have been given to Bishops and to submit to their legitimate authority, especially when the exercise of that authority has received approval from their legitimate, God-ordained, Spirit-filled Apostolic overseers.
For an individual or group of individuals to decide that they know better than the Bishops is the essence of Protestant thought. To the best of my knowledge, Parma under Bishop Emil Mihalik promulgated the Ruthenian Rescension. Were those who did not follow it deciding that they knew better? Monomakh
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I just wanted however to note that your statement about "major" problems being "very clear" that I would disagree. I understand you disagree. So does Father David and a few others! But that�s OK. You have a right to be wrong! As I have written frequently, I "LOVE" the New Liturgy and, at least on a local level, have found it to be encouraging of spiritual life and vitality among the lay people. Far from imploding, I think it is the beginnings of an explosion of spiritual and numerical growth for the Church. Your experience is unusual. Many priests are reporting a drop in attendance. At the Melkite parish I now attend I see a number of people who have also left the local Ruthenian parish. And we know from the experience of the Protestants that the introduction of secular feminist language and politics attracts no one, and only hastens the demise of a church. I do agree that we are at the beginning of spiritual and numerical growth. Not not because of the RDL but from the Ruthenian Liturgy that will follow. We saw the exponential growth in parishes that were allowed to celebrate the full Liturgy in a reasonably accurate translation (the Red Book). Soon that example will be allowed everywhere. I should also note that my "sources" indicate that there is very little chance that the RDL will ever be rescinded. Liberty to use an older form MAY be extended to those who wish it, but it is "very clear" that the RDL is here to stay. For that, I thank God! We will have to agree to disagree! If liberty is granted to parishes to use the official rubrics of the Ruthenian recension there will be enough parishes that do so that it will transform this Church. The others will then follow. Orthodoxy, faithfulness, authenticity, accuracy in translation and stability are what attract people and build churches. Agendas of revision and catering to secular feminist demands in language and politics do not.
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Liberty to use an older form MAY be extended to those who wish it That is the best news I've heard for Ruthenian Catholics in almost one year. Praise God! Those who are suffering may have a glimpse of hope.
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