www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Byzantine Rite - the oldest one?

So my book by Mike Aqulina has it wrong?

I don't know. What does it say?

Agreed. Strictly speaking, the modern Roman rite re-introduced some ancient elements that could be said to be older still than some of the rites practiced by other churches in longer continuity... Or conversely different Byzantine Churches - Orthodox and Catholic - have revisions and alterations in their various rescensions that go all the way back to 2006 (or whatever we did this morning wherever we were!)...

If you are looking for the litrugy with the oldest elements, that is one thing...

If you are looking for the litrugy that has the longest continuity in a particular form, that would seem to be another...

Many elements of the Byzantine Liturgy (and its accouterments) grew up rather late, as did elements of the Roman Mass. The Proskomedia (or Prothesis) Service is one late development; the full processional at the Great Entrance is another. It's hard to imagine the latter began simply with the deacon going out to find the best loaf of bread....

Ultimately, it's not so much the "older than thou" argument that is important but whether a legitimate, approved liturgy accurately conveys one or another liturgical heritage and thus is capable of deifying those who worship according to it.

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Western Orthodoxy Blog [westernorthodox.blogspot.com]

"The Liturgy of Mar Mari and Addai is celebrated by the Assyrian Church of the East, the Chaldean Catholic Church, and the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church (somewhat latinised).

The Syriac Liturgy of St. James is celebrated by the Syriac Catholic Church, Syriac Orthodox Church, Syro-Malankara Catholic Church, the Malankara Orthodox Church, and (in a somewhat latinised form) by the Maronite Catholic Church. " Michael Thoma posted this earlier.

Do we have links where we can read or hear the Liturgies mentioned? I would be very interested in looking at similarities to each other and to the Roman Liturgy. Which Roman Liturgy as we talking about, by the way? There are several as have been mentioned earlier.

Tim

Thank you very much for the answers!

And another question: i have seen be affirmed that the Melkite Church is the oldest church. It is not true, is not it?

Such a question is difficult to answer. If one accepts the argument that the Greek-Catholic Patriarchate of Antioch and All the East [which nowadays also incorporates Alexandria and Jerusalem] is the direct - and senior - lineal descendant of the Church established by Saint Peter and Saint Paul, which properly boasts of such Hierarchs as Saint Ignatius of Antioch, the Flavians, Patriarch Peter III, and so on, then yes, this is the oldest Church still functioning (the Church of Jerusalem was severely interrupted and it would be difficult to maintain that there was still a Hierarch at the head of it from the time of the Roman Conquest until the Peace of the Church).

But there are other Churches - including, of course, the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate - who will hotly dispute this claim. And neither of the "Greek" Patriarchates is using the same Liturgy that was used in Antioch during the first Millennium.

Fr. Serge

But what about Sts. Peter and Paul founding the Church of Rome? And St. Mark founding it in Alexandria? And St. Thomas in India? Aren't these all "equal"?

Alexis

This Actually is not as easy as one might think. All liturgy's have been modified to some extent or another, however as far as i know (and this is only what i have gotten from my liturgy study)3 Rites can claim to be the oldest and all three were founded about the same time. Jerusalem Rite, Roman Rite, and Byzantine Rite. All other Rites are a derivative of these. The problem is When did "Rites" begin? Who what what influence on what Rite?

As far as we can tell the "Rites" all started out the same and while the "Liturgy of St. James" is often times considered the oldest even that is in question. Peter was The original head of the Jerusalem Church.

According to Acts, James the Just was the original head of the Jerusalem Church.

This is all very interesting. I had been under the impression that the Syriac rites were the oldest, followed by the Byzantine, and that the Roman rite was the baby of the liturgical family.

yes, it is my understanding that the rites of rome, antioch, alexandria, jerusalem, armenia and those in india are older than the byzantine rite that emerged only in the 4th century.