www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I guess they are right again

From your lips to God's ears.....

S'nami Boh

(My emphasis).


In response, I quote Cardinal Ratzinger (now Benedict XVI) in 2004:

http://www.adoremus.org/1104OrganicLiturgy.html

While this is true, I would note that nowhere and at no time did the Cardinal (now Pope) recommend or encourage priests and/or laypeople to rebel against or in any way disobey the legitimate authority of the Church as exercised through her bishops. In fact, those who insisted on using the older liturgical forms often found themselves in schism against the Church.

If there is anything Church history teaches us, it is this. Those who insist on absolute purity often end up in schism. It began with the Monatists, continued with the Old Believers, continued in the Reformation, etc.


Submission and obedience to the duly ordained Spirit-filled (by virtue of their ordination and not by virtue of their own piety) is a hallmark of true Catholicity.

What in particular, especially vis-�-vis the "Old"(= English [patronagechurch.com] or Slavonic [patronagechurch.com] )?

Dn. Anthony

I think if there's anything recent RC history teaches us, it's that arbitrary liturgical reforms imposed from above make for empty churches.

John Murray

To answer your question briefly, to me this Liturgy restores the rightful sense of the full people of God engaged in prayer and moves us away from the false sense that the priest does his "thing" in the altar while the people do their "thing" out in the nave. This Liturgy is the engaged prayer of the entire people -- it restores the early church's focus on the Eucharistic prayer as being "of everyone and by everyone."

I also deeply appreciate the adoption of elements of horizontal inclusive language and find it both theologically correct and pastorally sensitive. From my personal dialogue with literally hundreds of young people, I can honestly say that this Liturgy communicates the Gospel effectively to today's youth in a way that the older form of the Liturgy does not.

That is certainly not something that the statistics of religious practice indicate. The Catholic Church in the USA has been growing and continues to grow -- primarily because of the recent immigration of Hispanics. As far as I know, the large and overflowing Hispanic Churches use the new forms and do not have any controversy about them.

On a local level, the largest and most active Latin Church in town (which is filled for every service to overflowing on Saturday/Sunday and is often filled with people during the week) has enthusiastically embraced the "new forms" -- including guitar masses, rock-n-roll liturgies, etc. I personally do not find this to be a meaningful worship experience, but thousands in my town do. This Church is literally so packed so that there are no seats available. So at least here in town, your thesis is not borne out in practice.

Just curious, where are you located in the Midwest? From my experience, I've come across just the opposite. In the churches that are staying true to the correct version, the churches are flourishing, like the RCOR church is in Cincinnati.

How many young people have you spoken with, and are they currently going to church in a Byzantine and or Orthodox Church? For the sake of these discussions, the Roman Catholic youth really can't be counted, since the majority of them have never had a choice between Vatican II and the Latin Mass.

And I might add, in another thread I pointed out that a friend in her 30s longs for the Roman Catholic Latin Mass. I don't think Vatican II did for the church what they hoped for, nor do I think the RDL will do anything substantial for the Byzantines. Get back to basics, and we'll watch the church grow. It's been done in plenty of BC churches and proved it would work.

Do they have another option to experience the Latin Mass? That's the real question.

There are three churches in town -- expressing all "ranges" of liturgical Latin worship (including a recently inaugurated Latin Mass). All three are full -- but the largest by far (in terms of attendance) is the most "modern."

We do not speak here about an older form of the Divine Liturgy. We speak of the official form of the Divine Liturgy of the Ruthenian recension as published by Rome. It is not an older form but the current, official form. We are speaking of a prohibition by a few bishops in America of the official Divine Liturgy of their (our) own Church. Unless they have formally abrogated all ties with the Ruthenian recension, the books for the Ruthenian recension published by Rome remain our official standard, the RDL not withstanding. To consider those who seek that the Divine Liturgy be celebrated according to the books published by Rome as possibly being in schism is just silly. According to canonical precedent, a priest who has a formal appeal on record could continue to celebrate the old translation and the official rubrics until the Holy Father has heard his appeal and ruled on his case.

Sorry, but this doesn�t fly. No one is insisting on absolute purity. No one is insisting that the Liturgy does not change. We are speaking here of a Revision that violates the Vatican directives on Liturgy. We are seeing four bishops in America creating their own Liturgy and rejecting the official books given by Rome. It is the bishops who have liturgically divorced the Pittsburgh Metropolia from the Liturgy we share with other Ruthenians (Catholic and Orthodox) and other Byzantines (Catholic and Orthodox). Change is only to be made together, by all the Churches Catholic and Orthodox. Rome has been clear on this. That is why I have every confidence that when this matter is properly reviewed in Rome and appealed to the Holy Father he will overturn it, and call the bishops back to the Ruthenian recension. I think we are already seeing the first signs of the implosion of the RDL, and expect that it will not be too many more months before the official Ruthenian Divine Liturgy is permitted again.

Father Mack,

This is surprising but good news. Could you provide the names of the parishes where these hundreds and hundreds of young people attend? When I've traveled and gone to church after church in the BCA I've always been the youngest person in the pews. Now in my late 30s there's rarely a single person younger than me. When I bring my two young children people in the church always remark at how they haven't heard a child in church in years. With literally hundreds and hundreds of young people providing this encouraging feedback it will be very easy for you to put a list of their parishes together on this exciting new data.

St. Elias in Toronto (UGCC), St. Anne's in Harrisburgh (BCA), and Pokrova in Parma (UGCC) are the only places where I've seen some kind of future in young people attending church. None of these three embrace the secular changes that are taking place in the BCA, I'll be awaiting to hear the facts about this new and exciting trend that you've uncovered!

Looking forward to hearing more specifics,



Monomakh

Monomakh

Please come visit St. Michael's in Canonsburg we have dozens of children. I think our ECF program is somewhere around 70 kids.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The Seventh Ecumenical Synod says in the 8th Decree: "If one violates any part of the CHURCH Tradition, either written or unwritten, let him be anathema.

Alexandr

Fr. Deacon Lance,

it's great to hear of a church in the BCA that actually has children. I'm not being sarcastic when I ask, does the Eparchy of Parma have over 200 kids in all of their ECF classes combined? That' an honest question. After 100 years in Pennsylvania and Ohio, shouldn't all Greek Catholic churches have at least 70 kids in them? I really do hope that one day BCA parishes can have 200 kids in their St. Nicholas programs like Pokrova (UGCC) in Parma where I attend does.

People are going to have a lot of explaining to do in the years to come when parish after parish closes down in Ohio and Pennsylvania. I really hope I'm wrong.

In the spirit of staying on topic, I'm not sure how the title of this thread holds much water.

Vocations down, attendance down, many parishes are one major repair from closing, 90% of parishes have no vespers or matins, proskomedia is ignored in many parishes, etc. Why is no one supposed to ask what is going on? And what track record of success does the BCA have to stand on? Please clarify this for me.

Monomakh