www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I guess they are right again

Slava Isusu Christu!
Slava na Viki!

Pilgrimcantor--thank you for responding. My main area of interest is in the music. I have experienced a few Divine Liturgies using the new Liturgy. The words are a bit different, but nothing that I can't live with. I'm not a fan of inclusive language and would rather not see it, but my main concern was the difference in the melodies. I've heard so many people say they don't remember any of those melodies while the people responsible for the new Liturgy maintain they are returning to melodies that have been lost over the years. That's the reason for my questions. So if you can shed any more light on that aspect, I and many others would appreciate it.

Tim

TO: Recluse
I am sorry to say I do not know what agenga you imply.
"Ruthenian recension" -- I thought "Ruthenian" was the Latin Rite (Roman) term for us back in the 50's...I think "Rusyn," or "Rusin," depending on who writes about it, was the correct term for our people these days.
In any case, I am not in any hurry to return to the "good olde days" of our people in this country. My Mother and grandparents came here from Carpatho Rus, and they were in no hurry to go back there! Neither am I!
Finally, I have to ask if you believe that our hierarchs are good or evil? Do you really think that they are out to destroy the Byzantine Church in America, or are they trying to bring us into the 21st century?

Dear Pilgrimcantor,

"Ruthenian" as used here refers to a set of Church Slavonic books produced in Rome beginning in the 1940's as part of an attempt to standardize our Liturgy and de-Latinize it. Although the 1965 Divine Liturgy translation into English was based on these books, it was released by the bishops with the understanding that changes in the ritual were NOT to be made; priests were to celebrate as before.

The first books in English, of course, were heavily abbreviated, and even the 1978 Levkulic book left out a lot that was in the Roman books. As Father Serge has said, hardly anyone has seen a "full service" according to the Roman liturgical books. So the calls here for a "return to our official liturgy" really involve implementing a significant expansion of our liturgy to include parts seen only in a few parishes - and while our bishops made a lot of de-Latinizing steps in the late 1990's, and the new books require that more of the service be taken than the 1978 book, they don't require EVERYTHING in the Roman books - and leave out of the priest's book the parts that are hardly ever used in our parishes.

And of course, it does also create a common "liturgical standard" across the Metropolia - higher than the old standard, but not high enough for some people here.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

Okay.
What a strange question. It is not my place to ever judge an individual to be "evil".
Not intentionally, no.
I do not know what this means. But if you think that watering down the Liturgical translations and adding gender-inclusive language is a fine vehicle for bringing the Byzantine Catholic Church into the 21 century, I would have to say that you (and the hierarchs) are sadly mistaken.

Jeff, please do not forget to mention that some parishes suffered a reduction by the RDL.

Examples of "gender inclusive" language -- In the creed, we now say "For us and for our salvation" instead of for "us men," and, at Liturgy's end, "for Christ is good and loves us all" instead of "He is gracious and loves mankind." Is that a bad thing?
I am fortunate to have texts of the priest's prayers, which were said silently before in many churches... These prayers are from previous translations and formats. They show an insight into the praying of the priest -- our problem as parishioners has been that we have not been able to hear and listen to those prayers. Here in Florida, we heard those prayers out loud for the last five years or so.
-- Let us PRAY.

What was the "old standard", i.e., say, just prior to the Parma liturgicon?

Let me ask you: why do think these changes were instituted?

For quite a number of parishes using the 1978 Levkulic Divine Liturgy book (173 pages):

One verse at each antiphon, rest optional and omitted
Between the antiphons: No little litanies in the book, none taken

No third antiphon provided in the book, none taken

Litany of the Catechumens - not in the book, not taken
First Litany of the Faithful - not in the book, not taken
Second Litany of the Faithful - not in the book, not taken

Litany after the Great Entrance, optional and omitted

Litany before the Our Father, optional and omitted

Litany of Thanksgiving, optional and omitted

No prefestive or postfestive hymnody

This is how the Divine Liturgy was celebrated into the mid-1990's in my old parish in the Pittsburgh archeparchy. In the late 90's some of the litanies which are now required began making a reappearance (orders from the Metropolitan, as I was told), and there were lots of complaints.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

Jeez, that must have been a 30 minute liturgy! Complaints of an added litany or two? God forbid anyone spend more than an hour in church!

Actually, my home parish now does the RDL in about 46 1/2 minutes,very little congregational singing. The priest and deacon do most of the singing. When we used the 1978 books, liturgy (served by our former pastor) was about 1 hour 10 minutes. I think it was because most of the congregation was singing with full bravado.

Ungcsertezs

And this could have been so easy to fix/remedy, by publishing a supplement. So sad that parishes like mine have taken steps backward to accommodate those Parishes who chose to remain Latinized.

Fortunately you don't have parishioners in your church who have said the things I've heard such as, "if this liturgy goes over an hour I'm never coming back".

That's a travesty. Why don't the complainers just go Latin rite?

But it's the way things are - and I've been in Orthodox parishes where parishioners said the exact same thing, except they said 90 minutes instead of an hour. And this was in a parish that most vostochniki would think of as liturgically near-perfect, and with a good pastor. Would you suggest they become Latin Rite Catholics as well?

Jeff