www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy I guess they are right again

Dear Pilgrimcantor,

Welcome to the forum, and thank you for your input.

I'd like to be able to take some time to do what you were hinting at in comparing versions of certain hymns in the RDL to the old slavonic. For instance, I know that ver. C of the "Holy, Holy, Holy" is the same melody as the "Svjat, Svjat, Svjat" which we used to sing. But since it was never done that way in English, many people felt it was a change (and hence "new") until they were sung side by side. Many of the Holy God's are that way also. One could alternate versus of English and Church Slavonic without missing a beat (Cherubic hymns can be compared, too).

My point is that most RC masses are under an hour. That should please them time wise. I can't understand how people can spend hours in front of the TV, at a shopping mall, at a ballgame, on the computer, etc, but they get ants in their pants if church lasts more than an hour.

I was at a three hour altar consecration last Saturday. It seemed to fly by. Certainly didn't feel like three hours.

Dear Etnick,

I'm the same way you are. But the fact is that a lot of people aren't - and in most places, labelling something as optional meant that it simply wasn't taken unless the bishop removed the "optional" label. On the other hand, as Zeeker points out, to simply publish the completely unabbreviated service and declare "everything in the book must be taken" will likely have a negative effect as well - either people leaving, or priests abbreviating AGAINST the bishop's orders.

Yours in Christ,
Jeff

ByzKat,

I guess it just comes down to how much people really love God and their church. I will honor God for sixty minutes every Sunday, no more. Gotta fit in breakfast before kickoff time!

Jeff,

clearly you're not implying that by keeping the liturgy to under 60 minutes that the BCA has seen increases in attendance? In reality attendance has gone down dramatically in the vast majority of parishes. Why in the world do you think that this feminized chopped up RDL will be any different?


Monomakh

Please reread my posts. I said nothing about attendance growing; I simply said that some (Greek Catholics AND Orthodox) have said in my hearing that they would stop attending church if services grew in length past a certain point. Their souls are the bishop's responsibility as well! I have been seeing services grow in length for more than a decade, and many Latinizations removed. I think those who do nothing but complain do a disservice to those around them of weaker faith, and ignore what positive steps the bishops HAVE taken. And the services we have now are certainly less "chopped up" than what we had 10-15 years ago in those parishes I've served. Should I refuse to attend till they are to my liking?

Jeff

Even with the new RDL, I witness liturgies under fifty minutes in several parishes. This is the cold, hard reality.

U-C

Much like the complainers of the RDL going Orthodox!

Be careful what you wish for Steve. In this area at least, if all those who disapprove of the RDL go Orthodox, there won't be anybody left in your churches, priests included.

Alexandr

Strangely enough, our Liturgy time length didn't change much. It is still more than an hour, closer to 1:20. Perhaps it is the cold winter air of PA that makes for such short Liturgies. So if only the priest and deacon are singing, and the DL is a full 30 minutes shorter, they must be singing quite fast, which would surely make it hard for anyone to follow. Sounds like a sure fire way to guarantee that the congregation doesn't sing!

Even prior to the RDL there had been a drop in congregation participation in the singing. Some priests I've observed back East (and out here in the West) seem to want everything sung faster and faster, like they want to be done sooner than the parishioners. "Now lay aside all earthly cares", but pay attention to the clock!

Steve

And some parishes only sing a "Twice Holy Hymn", with two refrains.

U-C

Everybody sing! I saw the light, I saw the light, no more darkness no more night. I will continue to pray for the BCC. I'll even have Father say a prayer at the 5 loaf, 30 minute proskimidia!

Our Liturgy time hasn't really changed either and both our Father's sing. I don't really know since I don't measure the power of our prayers by the time we stand in Church. I do know that we start at 10:30am and the only time we hear the noon bells chime is when we stay for a social or a meeting.

That is an excellent point that you make. A lot of the "new" music is what I remember hearing in Church Slavonic, also. There are so many variations, from church to church, region to region; the best part is, many of them fit together in a sort of "folk harmony." Where I cantor, in Florida, our parishioners are from Pittsburgh, Passaic, and Ohio, among other states. When we all sing the responses to the Liturgy, it still works!

So if some of the versions in the new pew book are similar or the same as the versions we used to sing in the 40's, 50's or even 60's, then how do we get so that we use only those versions of the prayers? I think asking the priest is the first step. Can someone take some time to go through the new pew book and the old liturgy and see which of the new versions are closer to what we all seem to want? Maybe then we can request our priests to use those versions whenever possible.

I was talking with my pastor a few weeks ago and mentioned that I don't expect Liturgy to be in Old Slavonic every week, but I would love it to have a few of the prayers in Slavonic maybe once a month. He said he didn't see anything wrong with that. It was doable. We need to use Slavonic or it will be lost forever. The younger parishioners need to learn it. I'm hoping my priest will set aside one Liturgy per month to have at least a few prayers--Svate Boze; Svat, Svat, Svat, Otce Nas, etc. I don't need a lot. But my heart soars when I get to sing in Church Slavonic. I know it shouldn't matter, but it just feels better when I sing Svate Boze or Vicnaja Pamjat.

Thoughts? A simple request can often get things done when getting angry simply puts up walls. And I wouldn't be surprised if lots of priests would like to do it and a request from the congregation is a great reason to do it.

Despite what it says in the new book about the new Liturgy being the only one to be used, as others have pointed out--the Bishops have been at Liturgies where Slavonic has been used and there haven't been problems. I've been told that the reason Slavonic was not included in the new pew books is that they were too big as it is. Putting things in Slavonic also would make it totally unmanageable. So a Slavic version is in the works. No date has been announced. But I welcome the day when we can sing Otce Nas. I really do wonder whether I'm on earth or in heaven--the candles, the incense, the singing from the heart...it's what makes time fly and a two hour Liturgy seem like twenty minutes. Let's pass this along to the next generation. It would be a crime not to.

But that's just my opinion.

Tim