www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Could someone please explain?

Actually the Turks sacked Constantinople --- and ... wait, the Turks are our allies now. So maybe it is a little different ...

I can agree that no country can or should claim to have a corner on the Lord�s blessing. Yet, it is very appropriate to pray for the victory of one�s country over the forces of Evil.

It is true that the Lord equally loves the people of Iran, North Korea, and Sudan as much as he loves the people of America or France. It is also true that He cares about all political entities equally. To say so in no way means that there is moral equivalency between nations. One can certainly make a reasonable theological argument that the Lord indeed favors (and should favor) nations that tend to do what is right over nations that tend to do what is wrong. In history the Allies were morally right while the Axis was morally wrong � even despite the many moral failings of the Allies during the War. It was not wrong for people across England, America, France, and elsewhere to specifically and openly pray for victory over Hitler. In the current struggle against the Islamists it is not theologically unreasonable to believe that the Lord would prefer a victory of those who seek to free over those who seek to enslave � even if those who seek to free are far from perfect and cannot be considered a Christian nation.

It is not merely a matter that all nation states are equivalent and one might seek that He favors ours over another�s. It is more that, despite the moral failings of countries like America, these countries are still far more faithful to Him (even if unknowingly) than are countries like North Korea, Iran, and China. I can understand that one must be careful as there are really no more Christian empires. Yet one can consider that there were times when the Byzantine Empire � a Christian Empire � was far from Christian and its emperors did things that were morally horrendous.

At the Melkite parish I attend they sing the Troparion of the Cross at the end of every Divine Liturgy. It is sung in open and clear support and hope for an American victory over the Islamists, and rightfully so. The translation this parish uses is: �Save Your people, O Lord and bless Your inheritance. Grant victory to our country over its enemies and protect Your nation by Your Cross.�

There has been no real explanation for the change of the petition �for our armed forces� in the RDL. Some have suggested that there was a desire to pray for policemen and firemen in addition to the armed forces. But that explanation is not adequate as the petition could have been rendered �For our civil authorities, our armed forces and all who serve our country, let us pray to the Lord.� Does the removal of specific prayer for the armed forces come for this new political idea of a moral equivalency of all nations? Does it come from a few of those who came of age during the Vietnam War and now tend to loathe anything and everything about the military? It would be very interesting to find out. But in the end neither first nor twenty-first century theology demands that we grant moral equivalency to all nations, cultures, and/or religions.

I think that the 1964 edition of the Divine Liturgy got it right. It gave a fairly literal petition for the Emperor and then offered a more generic one that included the civil authorities and the armed forces. One of the OCA parishes uses a translation that adapts this for America in what seems to be a very reasonable way: �For the President of these United States, for our Congress and Supreme Court, for all civil authorities� let us pray to the Lord.�

One point only: there were no nation-states in the first century. The idea of a "nation-state" is a modern, post-Enlightenment development. That is an important point that seems to be lost on most people who enter this argument.

To argue that a nation-state can be more "holy" than another nation-state seems ... well, just silly to me. It is also very naive. In a nation-state, political judgments are made on the basis of practical, geopolitical agendas that ALWAYS involve the advancement and/or protection of the nation-state. There is nothing holy or sacred about that.

Take for example, our nation's support of the dictator in Pakistan - a dictator who (to use your phrase) is "enslaving his people" right now. Is there anything holy about that -- anything sacred about that -- anything moral about that? Of course, not. Our nation-state supports him because he is helpful in promoting our national agenda -- which, by the way, has nothing to do with God but has everything to do with money, power, etc.

Each individual stands before God alone -- on that great and final day, we will not stand before God as Americans or Afghanis or Saudis ... We will stand as individuals who will be judged solely on the basis (thankfully) of what we have done or not done -- and not on the basis of what our political leaders have done or not done.

I disagree with much of what PrJ has stated.

I�ve not used the word �holy� to describe a nation-state and I am not sure why PrJ makes such a leap. Nor have I (or anyone else) suggested that we stand before God as nations and not individuals. Just as the Lord might bless a man when he does what is good and withhold that blessing when the man doe not do what is good so, too, can He bless nations when they do good and withhold that blessing when they do not do what is good. Also, praying that one�s country be victorious in a legitimate struggle against Evil � be it fascism, communism, or Islamism � in no way suggests that one�s country is sacred. We pray that the Lord lead our country to do what is right, to protect especially those who serve our country in armed conflict. Praying that the Lord bless nations that do good is a just and good thing. And one need not hide the fact that one�s country often makes mistakes in order to support it when it does good, and pray that it continue to do what is good and refrain from doing what is evil.

Thinking that the American agenda is only about money and power is far too cynical. It is certainly true nations can tend to such things and the Lord knows that there are many in our country and government who care only about money and power. Yet to reduce American existence to being only about money and power is wrong. Despite the many flaws of our country � legalized abortion is probably among the most evil � we are still a force for good in the world. In fact, we are the major political force for good in the world. That�s worth praying for by name.

I certainly have to agree with the Administrator. I pray for everyone. When I pray for the leaders of our country, it's in the hope that they do the right thing. Not the easy thing to do, or to help the economy grow so I can get rich. But that they make the correct decisions---to help the poor and disadvantaged in our country and around the world.

American politicians and people are not perfect. But when compared to the leaders of North Korea or China---there's a huge difference. Do our leader's make moral compromises? Yes, absolutely. Do I agree with those compromises? No. Are they an essential fact of life in this day and age? Unfortunately, yes, they are. And always have been.

The troops fighting in Afghanistan and Iraq are not doing it for oil or money or Haliburton stock options. They are doing it because they feel it is the right thing to do. They are there not to get rich, but to help people. To disregard that fact is to do them a great disservice. Was the Spanish-American War necessary? Absolutely not. Was WWII necessary? Absolutely. Americans and people all over the world are the same. We do some things that are good and some things that aren't so good. Some things that are bad. But the intention counts too, not just the action. Does anyone really think the leaders of North Korea intend to help their people, but it just doesn't work out? That things get in their way? Of course not. They don't care about their people at all. No matter how cynical I can be, and as a journalist, I can be pretty cynical, I don't believe that every politician in America is out only for themselves. But I do believe that of the leaders of North Korea. Actions speak louder than words.

So we should all pray for every one of the 6-plus billion people in the world. That we rise above our problems and misunderstandings and do the right thing--for the right reason. No matter the religion or nationality. I'm going to continue to pray.

Tim

Naive? Silly?


Praying for my own flesh and blood, my heart and joy, in the Liturgy is NAIVE and SILLY ?

Please excuse me if I get a little OUTRAGED by what your posts seem to suggest.

We are praying for our own. It is not about the politics. It is praying for one's own people -- a natural, normal human need. That includes our political leaders -- no matter how much we may or may not disagree with them. That includes our armed forces -- no matter how much we may or may not like what they are doing. They are our own. And we pray for them.

Your . . . position . . . may have a certain logic to it, but it offensive nevertheless to me and to others whose family are in the military.

Believe it or not: I'm not praying for victory, nor for a political goal, nor for a military objective, when I pray for the armed forces . . . so many of whom are my close family.

Instead, I pray for their welfare and for their lives, both physical and spiritual.

And don�t tell me --pedantically or otherwise-- that I should be praying for the enemy too. I do pray for the enemy. And they are included in the Liturgy too, "for all mankind." I pray thus because I know thus: that the enemy consists of someone else's son, brother, nephew, uncle, child. I know that, sir, because I live with that reality every day that my flesh and blood are risking life and limb: by being someone else's enemy.

Please try be more the priest and less the professor on this. Please recognize that --for some us, and in reality for all of us-- praying for the armed forces as such is praying for our own flesh and blood.

And then, please give them the respect that they deserve and the charity that they need by giving them a prayer, in public.

-- John

I am a government employee and never once did I think "for those in the service of our country" referred to me. People say my boy is in the Service, I was in the Service and everbody understands they mean the Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, or Coast Guard. Beside for those in the service of our country is in the Levkulic Pew Book and never heard anybody complain.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear John:

I'm very sympathetic to your concerns for your family members, but, in all honesty, I believe that your post distorts the portion of Fr. John's post which you have quoted. His post calls "naive" and "silly" the attribution of a greater degree of holiness to one nation-state as opposed to any other. He does not call "naive" or "silly" your desire to pray for your "own flesh and blood," your "heart and joy."

Ryan

I hope that everyone understands the point that Ryan is making about my original post. Of course, I encourage everyone to pray for everyone -- and I rejoice that our Liturgy again and again gives us that opportunity!

The point I was making is that our nation is not holy or sacred -- and the larger theological point I was making was that nowhere in Scripture do we find that God works through the nation-state to accomplish His will. Since the nation-state was not in existence during biblical times, that is a given.

As I read the New Testament, God works in the world through His people (the Church) and through families (the mini-Church). In the Old Testament, God worked through the holy people of Israel but as I understand biblical theology, the fulfillment of the people of Israel (as a secular-sacred entity) is the Church (as a purely spiritual entity).

The universality of the New Testament gospel is striking in its rejection of tribal claims to exclusivity. It is this gospel message that was obscured by the Constantinian attempt to merge the state and the church in the 4th century.

John,

Here is a prayer for our God loving armed forces. May it bring you some comfort.

Christ our True God, who loves mankind, look down with mercy and compassion upon every soldier who is facing a daily struggle with war, aggression and terrorism. Each one desires to live before You, and be ever protected by Your Right Hand. Preserve them, we humbly pray, and watch over them every given hour. Guide their steps, give wisdom and discernment to all who are in leadership, that Your will may prevail, and that they may return safely to their homes and loved ones.

We beg You to hear the cry coming from our hearts, dear Lord Jesus Christ. We know that we are surrounded by many dangers. We are frightened as destruction; pain and death seem so near. We hurt with those who are hurting, and grieve with those who grieve, whether on the battlefield or in their homes.

Draw us closer to You, we pray. Grant to us and to each soldier the desire to say as the Psalmist did, "I will say of the Lord, 'He is my refuge and my fortress; My God, in Him I will trust.' He shall cover you with His feathers, and under His wings you shall take refuge." (Psalm 91)

In Your righteousness forgive us as we continue in the defense of our beloved country. Watch over those whom we love, our wives, our children, relatives, and friends, as well as all civil authorities. May Your guiding Spirit be with those who govern us. Bless our country America, our allies, and all those who love freedom, peace, and good will among all men.

May Your mercy be ever granted to us, for without fear but with love, humility, and obedience we to turn to You, that we may be strengthened, stand firm, and live.

Through the prayers of our Holy Fathers, Lord Jesus Christ our God, have mercy on us and save us. Amen.

Alexandr

I too, pray for the enemies of all Christians. I pray that the hagarenes come to know Christ and become Orthodox Christians before God strikes them from the face of the earth as the new Amalekites.

Thus says the Lord of hosts, �I have noted what Amalek did to Israel in opposing them on the way when they came up out of Egypt. 3 Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." (1 Sam. 15:2-3).

Alexandr

There is plenty of support in the Church�s theology of recent years to support both the Church�s acceptance of nation-states as the way the world is currently organized and the armed forces that serve them, and the right and obligation of the Christian faithful to pray for them. Praying for our nation and the armed forces that serve it does not mean one considers it holy or sacred. Nor does such prayer argue for tribal claims or exclusivity. I certainly have not posted any such claims and in my read of what others have posted they have not, either. Just this past September we can see several examples of prayer for a specific nation by Pope Benedict XVI on the occasion of his pastoral visit to Austria, where he entrusted the Austrian nation to the care of Mary, the Mother of God.

Rewording the petition from the 1965 Liturgicon using the words and context of the Vatican II document we can see how appropriate it is to pray for our armed forces by name:

For our armed forces, the agents of our security and freedom, that they may serve our country with honor, and that they may make a genuine contribution to the establishment of peace, let us pray to the Lord.

Lord, have mercy!

Thank you, and God bless you, Alexandr.

That is very moving to me.

-- John

I apologize to everyone, especially Fr. Mack, for my emotional outburst yesterday. Please forgive me.

-- John

Thank you.



Yes and no.

Yes, Fr. Mack was addressing an intellectual point of how the Church (through its liturgical prayer life) both served and became part of a theocracy since the Emperor Constantine I, and how that is, arguably, a distortion of the Gospel.

No, because the underlying issue is people. In the Liturgy, we pray for people. In wars, it is people who fight and suffer and die. And it is those people who need our prayers, explicitly.

-- John