www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West What Will It Take to Reunite the Churches?

Well, I think there is give and take to be done on both sides, and it is unhelpful to presume winners or losers, who is more right or who has to change more.

As I have said before, the seeds of much more Eastern ecclesiology are ALREADY sown. I detect that many in the East have not taken very seriously the developments already in place and emerging.

Rome is already treating the Eastern Churches quite differently. If some of the views expressed here by Eastern Catholics were expressed by Latin Rites, there would be discipline. If what Easterners are looking for is a kind of double standard. Hey, it's already here.

You will find the the section from father John around the bottom of page 5. It's numerical entry is #260521. Check your PMs.

Father-

Where can one find a book or other such material which explains the true understanding, vice the caricature? The caricature to my belief is made by direct quotes of VI documents, sometimes with VII quotes intermixed. To my mind, if what you say is true (and I believe it is - I've seen works by Cardinal Ratzinger, before he became Pope, which said the same) then there is something fundamentally wrong with a simple reading of these documents which can only be solved by the presentation of a different perspective.

Markos

Great question, Markos, let me look around. What I know I learned in theology.

Fr. J.

If I may, I have a suggestion:

The Bishop of Rome by J.M. Tillard.

Amazon: The Bishop of Rome [amazon.com]

Also, you might consider his Church of Churches as well.

Amazon: Church of Churches [amazon.com]

God bless,

Gordo

Veritas et Caritas

Can anyone elaborate for me the Eastern understanding of reception? It is not a major issue in the West as I suspect it is in the East. Is there a mechanism for reception? Is there a time limit on reception? By the East's understanding of reception, would Nicea not qualify as an ecumenical council for several generations? Is there an official way of proclaiming the ecumenicity of a council?

It's not clearly defined. Ditto for the UOM AFAIK.


To my knowledge there is no agreed upon or consistent method of deducing the ecumenicity of a council either East or West. I actually think that is something the two together would have to settle upon.

The answer is mixed. A council can be considered ecumenical unofficially over a period of many years by all the outcomes of a council being accepted by individual Orthodox Churches on an ad hoc basis or by being proclaimed an ecumenical council by the next ecumenical council after it.

The reason I brought this up is not to make points about the lack of clarity in Orthodox process or theology, AMM, but to point out that the biggest problematic I see with Papal Infallibility is that it is taught as "valid without the consent of the Church." This could be overcome in my opinion partially by the conditions required to proclaim a teaching ex cathedra, but the East seems to not recognize the authority of even a council for an indeterminate time. This to me is the largest discrepancy that I see.

Father, you just made an interesting comment worth following up on. There seems to be a thread in western theology that everything has to be spelled out and defined. Orthodox theology is often content with its lack of clarity. Just to cite one example of this, one example is the dormition of the Theotokos. Bluntly, the EOC does not believe there is any NT or patristic evidence to support the Concept of the Assumption and would argue that are very good theological reasons for her not being assumed, but dying like the rest of us. Officially, the church has not taken a position on the matter so some people believe in the concept and others do not. The matter gets even more muddy when one examines the hymnology on the dormition of the Theotokos. If one reads the various hymns sung on the 15 August, you would believe that the EOC accepted the concept. Most of us accept the apparent lack of clarity as a fact of life, though I can understand why some would have problems with it.

Thanks for your response, John. I have gotten this response before and have no reason to doubt it. My point, however, is NOT the lack of clarity in Orthodox process or theology, but the discrepency between a system that requires reception, even if in a murky fashion, and a system that says no reception is necessary in the specific instance of papal infallibility.

I think saying a council is "ecumenical" is really a misnomer, because a council will never and could never have acceptance by every single last person in the church. Let alone every bishop.

I think the criteria which we judge councils by is the affirmation of truth we find in them. It is not by the council itself proclaiming infallibility or ecumenicity, and it is not through the reception or singular authority of any one bishop, see or particular church. There is I believe no process or time period by which we can define how this happens. I believe it is a truly a mystery, that through certain councils we find a witness to and affirmation of the truth, and that these truths enter in to the consciousness of the church.

It was said somewhere that what people like Cardinal Manning wanted in the 19th century was revelation on tap, the fast track to "ecumenicity", which in addition to the political situation in Europe and in particular Italy were the circumstances that framed Vatican I. Even though this party may not have gotten all they wanted, I believe the attempt to lay parameters around the mystery being discussed represented an overreach and a mistake. Perhaps it is by seeing this, and seeing how the ideas of Vatican I have actually not become a part of the truth witnessed to by the church universal, can we find a way forward.

The builders of the Cathedral of the Assumption in Moscow [moscow-taxi.com] or even the good folks of the GOA in Denver who built the Assumption of the Theotokos Greek Orthodox Cathedral [assumptioncathedral.org] in Denver may tend to feel there is some good tradition behind the assumption. But recall please, that the Assumption does not preclude a falling asleep in the Lord.

Traditionally, in an Orthodox context, a Council was deemed Ecumenical only when it was called by an Orthodox Emperor.