www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why Orthodox Men Love Church - Frederica Mathewes-Green beliefnet

I don't know, Katie. As a convert to Orthodoxy who hopes to be Chrismated on Theophany, I can't determine a trend. I came to Orthodoxy for reasons of theology and spirituality and liturgy, and I doubt if any of my family will follow.

For me personally, I knew it was time to go East after I had attended an Eastern Catholic parish and then I returned to a Roman Catholic parish for Mass. I felt like an alien. The holding hands during the Lord's Prayer especially blew me away. Likewise, I knew it was time to go Orthodox after I had attended an Orthodox parish for a while and then returned to a Byzantine Catholic parish for liturgy. I was stunned: there was so much left out, physically as well as otherwise, and the "improved" liturgy was a misnomer.

The Catholic Mass is not necessarily "masculine" or "feminine." Like Terry pointed out, it really depends on the people who are participating.

Likewise, I find that the women appreciate the Eastern Church's demand for self-discipline and strenuous worship as much as the men.

If there is a trend, I would say it might be this: In countries where Eastern Christianity is a minority, people must really choose to be Orthodox or Eastern Catholic. That is because the overwhelming cultural urge there is towards some other religion or secularism. So, the Eastern Christians who are left tend to be really committed to their religion; and they include both men and women.

-- John

Let me take a bit of a contrarian view here.

I was actually pretty sympathetic to many of the views she expressed here. I see within many of the contemporary expressions of suburban, North American Roman Catholicism, Anglicanism and Lutheranism (notice the qualifiers there) a definite stream of a very feminizing form of religion (I will not say "feminine") in much the same way that strict Islam is a masculinizing form of religion. By using the terms "feminizing" and "masculinizing" I am differentiating between an authentic expression of their root (masculinity and feminity) and their disfigured forms. Much of contemporary suburban (one could also say "boomer" since there is a definite generational component) Roman Catholicism has been awash for decades in sentimentality, pastel banners and vestments, androgonous three-quarter time ditties with little if any reference to the transcendent, homilies about "caring and sharing", etc etc etc..

Liturgy became an experience of community and belonging...

Mission became the opportunity to alleviate suffering, instead of converting hearts and minds and making disciples of all nations...

Jesus is our friend and deliverer...(which is all when and good except when interpreted in a very one-sided way)

etc etc etc etc.

The problem is that much of the NA-RC Church for a time embraced a very indescriminate model of "inculturation" which included various gradations of the radical feminist and socialist agendas. Pope Benedict's effort to reinstill a "hermeneutic of continuity" vis-a-vis matters liturgical, catechetical, missionary and societal is a very welcome development, and my sense is that you will see a large number of men (especially of the masculine sort) taking an active interest in this kind of movement for precisely the reasons outlined by Frederica Mathewes-Green.

That said I do not necessarily agree with all of her anti-Western analysis. But I see the same sort of bias displayed periodically here on this forum.

Orthodoxy, by and large, was rather insulated from the influences of radical feminism in North America (as it was from the influences of enlightenment rationalism) in part because it kept its liturgy intact (Thanks be to God) and saw itself both as bearers of a traditional Faith wedded almost inseperably to a traditional patriarchal rooting/home culture far removed from the influence of some of these contemporary movements. (Its roots in monastic culture is also a help, I believe...) That is not to say that feminism has not affected Orthodoxy at all (there is some evidence of a softening in different parts of the Western world - I will not say where, as I do not wish to offend). I am also NOT saying that all aspects of the feminist movement are bad, just much of its radicalized forms.

But in general I agree with her (and with many of the men who were quoted) that Orthodoxy offers a more authentically spiritually balanced vision for both genders than contemporary, suburban boomer Roman Catholicism - WHICH, BTW, I believe to be on the mend (again, thank God and Papa Bene).

Just my two cents...

Gordo

On the basis of my own experience, I would say that Frederica Matthewes-Greene is wrong. If you attend Greek parishes (and the vast majority of Orthodox in the USA are Greek), you will not notice an extra-large number of men present. Most will be dominated by women in attendance (this is primarily a demographic issue -- women live longer than men, older people go to church more often than younger, etc.)

In terms of converts, NO study that I have seen substantiates Greene's point. First, the numbers converting to Orthodoxy are statistically unimportant. There are many more converts to the Latin Church each year -- this is true both on a statistical and numerical basis. Second, most of those who convert to Orthodoxy in the US do so on the basis of marriage. Anyone remember My Big Fat Greek Wedding. That is still the reality. In this case, the reason for conversion has little to do with the kind of things that have been suggested in this forum.

Another thing to watch is the number of men who discontinue in the Church after a few years. This is a growing phenomenon (one that has been noted by several scholars I know) among the Orthodox. On a personal anecdotal level, I know of many women who continue to attend the Church long after their husbands (who converted first) have stopped. If you go to older convert parishes, you will see that the older demographic of heavily female participation returns within one generation.

For those of you who want to read on this -- check out:

http://astore.amazon.com/gp/detail....&creative=380565&asin=0785260382

Or you could check out this blog: http://briefingroom.typepad.com/the_briefing_room/2007/11/are-there-more-.html

Seriously, for a scholarly overview of gender and religious observance, see:

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?PageID=115

For a serious scholarly take on the swing in the American religious perspective from feminine to masculine religious values, see Stephen Prothero's American Jesus. Prothero demonstrates quite convincingly how for generations Americans have alternated between masculine and feminine presentations of Jesus. He has great pictures! My "favorite" is Jesus as a boxer.

Professor,

That is interesting and surprising. I would expect the fervor of some converts to cool after a while. But a gender based trend of it ? Why do you think that is ?

-- John

I personally liked this article and actually had passed it along to a few people before it appeared here...one thing I find interesting, based on my limited personal experiences with both myself and members of the HT community in Bridgeport...I wan't to be clear this does not apply to all but there does seem to be a trend I have noticed...the great majority of people who converted to Orthodoxy (from the community) were men...of those who simply "jumped to the Latin church" the females (by and large but not all) seem to have adjusted much better to the Latins than the men did...I base this on numerous discussions with males who are now going to the Latin Church (from the HT community)

Chris

Well, I will say that I converted to Orthodoxy before my wife did. But after talking with our Orthodox priest and reading a little bit, as well as attending Liturgy, she quickly decided to convert also. Of course, we were Melkite so it isn't as if we weren't already familiar with the Liturgy and traditions (though my wife was raised RC).

Joe

I have met and know many Latin Rite Catholic men and Byzantine Catholic men who have a great love and esteem for the Church and who attend regularly and pray regularly both at home and in Church, so I do not think only Orthodox men enjoy going to church.

Take care,

John Doucette

I definitely think the article raises some interesting points, and generally I can not help but think that there is some truth to them. I am not qualified to determine where it ceases to be accurate, but where I agree I suppose is that Eastern Christianity seems to have more to challenge, and more images that are courageous and ancient. And because they have maintained such strict rules on icon writing, the serious and inspiring looking images are all that is offered, whereas for a Western Christian there are a lot of different images to choose from amd sometimes the friendly ones dominate (I have truble finding rtwork I like at a Catholic bookstore for instance). I tend to agree that it is better to have a more powerful (or neutral transcendant) image of Jesus and the saints.

That being said, I think that men are called to have a faith that has its more bold and passive elements. Is not Eastern Christianity supposedly a very mystical religion. I know it is. Yet the article strained how Orthodoxy was a 'doing' religion. But it is also the religion of being called to silence and deep union with God. It may be a bold and courageous silence and prayer which faces inner struggle, but still requires at some points to be passive with one's physical actions and contemplative.

Also, there is plenty of female imagery built into the church as well, as the tabernacle and icon screen can both be alikened to a womb.

And the idea of being the bridegroom of Christ. Is there not an icon called Christ the bridegroom, and regarding a suffering Jesus, is not Jesus seen suffering in this very icon? The idea of being the bridegroom, or the idea of the Eucharist being a wedding feast or sort of a way of deepening our covenant which is a mariage of Christ and the church is indispensible to East and West and an earlier reply did well to show us how the bridegroom imagery was long existent even in the Eatern church and is actually in the Bible anyway. Maybe the problem is not the concept, but proportionately it is focused on?

What I think is key is balance. Balance of friendly and powerful Jesus, balance of suffering and victorious Jesus, balance of masculine activity with passive being able to gaze lovingly into the face of God spirituality.

Jesus says, things like, 'springs of living water will flow from within' and 'come to me all who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest...I am meek and humble of heart' or 'you must become like little children' or 'how I longed to gather you like hens' or 'i now call you my friends' and many more images would abound....

on the flip side there are statements like 'kingdom of heaven is a matter of violence and violent men take hold of it' or 'pick up your cross and follow me' or 'whoever is not willing to lose his life is not worthy of me' or 'take heart for I have overcome the world' or Paul saying 'we are more than conquerors in Christ' (sorry bout the poor paraphrasing)

So the question is how each individual is to find the balance and ability to relate to God how she or he is created to. I think that men and women are unique and created to reflect and love God in distinct ways, but for each there must be some crossing and overlapping and needing to round out one's personality.

After all in Christ 'there is neither male nor female' I like the romance, as long as it is courageous and romantic at the same time and not overly sentimental, yet still poetic. In my opinion, masculinity is powerful ruged and possibly bearded and all the rest, but a true masculine person I think still would love art and beauty and nature, and conquer he world through love and be a good compassionate father, yet one who is bold and makes sacrifices. And conversely, I think women are called to learn to be strong and conquer their emotions and insecuritites (as men are also called) and be able to be a warrior for her family even if seen as the protected one in some way.

So I think that both East and West should be offering the same things, and as a Catholic, I undrstand why the article is critical in some of the places it is, but that does not mean that a Catholic man can not also find what he would be looking for if he were more slective about which devotions and practices he takes on. I generally agree with the article about the state of the church artwork nd liturgy, that in some ways the East has stayed what I would call neither masculine or feminine, but transcendant (though probably more masculine than femnine if it had to be defined), Where gender is less important but we are one in Christ. And I hope the West will move more this direction as well.
Sorry for ranting on and on.
Brian

What is the HT community?

Sorry...take a look at past threads on the forum...the HT community is the former parishioners of Holy Trinity Byzantine Catholic Church in Bridgeport, CT that was, how shall I say, unceremoniously closed 2 years ago...

Sorry for the shorthand...

Chris

Chris,
I didn't realize Holy Trinity was closed 2 years ago, I think I still found it listed as a parish on some website somewhere. My parents live in Hartford, and we are visiting for Christmas. I believe there is a Ukrainian Catholic church in Hartford, but am disappointed to hear the Byzantine church in Bridgeport closed. Are there any other Byzantine Cahtholic churches in the Hartford area? Thanks.
Alexis

When I was on the eparchy of Passaic website the other day looking for the address of St. Nicholas in White Plains, NY...I noticed several closed parishes still listed...In regards to Byzantine Catholic (Ruthenian) parishes in CT there is Trumbull and Danbury...and I believe Meridan and New Britain still exist...

Sorry everyone for the diversion off the topic...

Holy Trinity Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church in New Britain is still alive. 121 Beaver Street, New Britain, CT 06051 860-229-2531.

St. Michael Ukrainian GC Church, 135 Wethersfield Avenue, Hartford, CT (5 numbers listed in phone book--not sure which is the rectory)

St. Josaphat Ukrainian GC Church, 307 Eddy Glover Blvd, New Britain, CT 860-223-9915/860-225-7340

Hope this helps.

Frederica Mathewes-Green brought a lot of her Protestant baggage with her when she joined the Orthodox Church, and as such, be aware that her opinions, and that is exactly what it is, opinion, do not reflect the reality as taught by the Orthodox Church, and should not be construed as such. I find her remarks odd, and often at odds with patristic thought. She is a glaring example of the super convert, who thinks that they are more Orthodox than the Orthodox, and immediately presume to teach us our own faith. Read a real Orthodox Theologian instead!

Caveat emptor!

Alexandr