www.byzcath.org Forums Mysteries: The Life of Worship Vespers, Matins & the Divine Liturgy The Revised Divine Liturgy Could someone please explain?

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Of course not!!

This is the first time I have seen this complaint (I may have missed it before). I think 1 Th 5:21 misreads the situation. The reality is that we no longer live in a Constantinian world that is governed by Constantinian presuppositions about the union of the state and the church. In a pluralistic environment where foreign policy decisions are made on the basis of everything BUT Christian morality, to continue to pray for the armed forces makes no liturgical or theological sense. This is not secularism -- and by the way, this is standard across Orthodox juridictions. Although most liturgies that I have seen continue to pray for the "armed forces", they changed the words of the Troparion of the Cross and the Kontakion of the Cross so that they no longer refer to secular authorities as they originally did but now refer to the spiritual leaders of the Church. If you look carefully at the various service books and compare them to the originals, you will see that this is frequently done.

I attended a Divine Liturgy at the local Greek Orthodox cathedral in the spring and noticed that not only did they pray for our armed forces but for President Bush by name.

I wish we still prayed specifically for our armed forces. As much as I like our mailman I think they need it more.

John Murray

Father, could you elaborate on this please? I am not at all familiar with what you are referring to.

Alexandr

And how, though I might be biased.

Ed

I don't have my liturgical texts in the original Greek and Slavonic with me at work ... so I can't answer as thoroughly as I might otherwise do.

But I think I can illustrate the way in which the Liturgical texts have been changed to match our non-Constantinian world briefly by comparing the translations of the Troparion and Kontakion to the Cross.

This Kontakion (as well as the Troparion) were penned during the Constantinian period and thus reflect the Church's identification with the State. Thus the prayers announced in both the Troparion and Kontakion ask God to bless the secular leaders of the Orthodox world with victory through the Cross.

So the Troparion read: "O Lord, save your people and bless your inheritance, granting our rulers to prevail over their enemies and protecting your commonwealth by your Cross." I would also note that older texts make the emphasis more clear by inserting the name of the Tsar (in Slavonic -- blagovjernomu imperatoru nashemu imjarek) in place of "our rulers."

And the Kontakion read (in part) "By your might make our believing rulers glad, granting them victory over their adversaries. May your aid be a weapon of peace, a trophy of invicincibility."

Given the Byzantine practice of inscribing the cross on the shields of the soldiers, quite obviously, this is a militant prayer in which the faithful ask God to grant victory to the state against its enemies (who are presumed also to be the enemies of the Church). Notice as well that the troparion asks for victory for secular rulers (the Tsar in the Russian realm) and for protection for the secular state (the commonwealth) by the Cross. Thus both represent a Constantinian vision of the union of Church and State in one holy kingdom of God on earth.

If you look at many translations of this Troparion and Kontakion in English Orthodox texts, you will see that subtle translation changes been introduced so that they both can be prayed in a post-Constantinian world.

Thus the Troparion now reads variously:

"O LORD, save thy people, and bless thine inheritance. Grant victories to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries, and by the virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation." See http://www.novgorod.ru/english/read/information/orthodox-hymnody/holidays/

"O Lord, save Thy people and bless Thine inheritance. Grant victories to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries; and by the virtue of Thy Cross, preserve Thy habitation." See http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=88

Thus the Kontakion now reads variously:

"Gladden with Thy power Orthodox Christians/ and give them victory over their enemies./ May they have as an ally that invincible trophy, Thy weapon of peace." (See http://users.netmatters.co.uk/davidbryant/C/TropKon/Aug.htm#Aug1)

"As Thou was mercifully crucified for our sake, grant mercy to those who are called by Thy name; make all Orthodox Christians glad by Thy power, granting them victories over their adversaries, by bestowing on them the invincible trophy, Thy weapon of peace." See http://www.oca.org/OCchapter.asp?SID=2&ID=88

The point is that in each case the translation has been adapted to reflect the new political vision of the people of God in the 20th (and now 21st) century. The state is dropped and the prayers are now for "Orthodox Christians" and for the Church rather than for the state. (I would note that some Greek translations as well as at least one Melkite translation have kept the emphasis on secular rulers but have subtly introduced changes to the text to reflect our new political perspective.)

I would also note that a similar (and less important) change was made to the liturgy by inserting the word "by air" in the petition for the those who travel in the Great Litany.

I have several members of my family who are in the U.S. military. Three are currently on active deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan. (And there is a three star flag in the window.) Another one came back injured from Afghanistan and took months to recover. Three others could be sent to the war within a few years.

Hence, I am personally very grateful that the pastor at my church (OCA) prays for all our armed forces at the proper points in the litanies of the Liturgy.

-- John

I have to agree, I'm glad we have the prayers for members of our armed forces. I understand the reasoning for it originally, but excluding it just doesn't seem right. The reason for putting it in have changed, but the end result is the same--we are still praying for souls. Whether we are related to them or not is irrelevant. Every night when we say prayers, my wife, my nine year old son and I pray for "all the soldiers everywhere, and may they come home soon and safely and especially those soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq." Then we mention two soldiers we know who live in our community. One of them is on an air craft carrier in Virginia. The other one is in Iraq. And we mention them by name.

The same applies to praying for our governmental leaders. We REALLY need some help there. It has nothing to do with the way it was in Constantinople. Our government needs diving help. At all times, not just during this administration.

Tim

Tim, please note that we DO PRAY for our government and all who serve in it several times during the Liturgy. I would also hope that you pray for Iraqi soldiers and for those who are fighting in the insurgencies against the US and for those who are fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan, and those who are fighting against the terrorists in the Sudan as well as for the terrorists who are commiting genocide, etc. I would hope that we Christians pray for everyone and everything!

What I reject is the Constantinian idea that somehow God favors our nation or that God cares about the political entity known as the USA more than He cares about the political entity known as Afghanistan, etc.

To help teach my children this important fact when they were younger, we used to sing "God bless America" but we would substitute various other countries' names in place of "America." I wanted my children to understand that God is not partial towards Americans. As Peter said to Cornelius, "God does not play favors among nations or ethnic groups but is inclined towards all who pray faithfully to him."

Wow! Welcome to Christianity in the 21st Century. When I can post something that won't get deleted I will.

I'll just start with this:

Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melts before the fire so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.

Monomakh

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting Life. John 3:16

I exhort therefore that first of all supplications, prayeres, intercessions and thanksgiving be made for all -- for kings and for all who are in authority ... For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who wishes all to be saved. 1 Tim 2:1-3

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female -- for you all are One in Christ. Gal 3:28

I prefer to think of it as first century Christianity!

Of course Jesus said to pray for our enemies. Since he said to, I will, although it's low on my priorities. I pray for their conversion. What most are asking for is God's help in nailing those enemies before they fly more airplanes into office buildings or set off more IEDs under our guys' trucks.

When you think about who finally did in Constantinople, they look like pretty much the same enemy as now. In that sense, we are praying to avoid the fate of mid fifteenth century eastern Christianity. That hardly seems unreasonable.

To the extent that the structure and function of the government has changed since the days of Byzantium, why we would be praying especially for postal clerks, (ahem) college professors, tax collectors, or county agricultural agents escapes me.

John Murray

So, for instance:

God Bless Afghanistan,
Land that I love.
Stand beside her, and guide her
Thru the night with a light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies,
To the oceans, white with foam
God bless Afghanistan, My home sweet home.
God bless Afghanistan, My home sweet home.

Unique; not to mention that Afghanistan is landlocked.

That is the joy of homeschooling -- their assignment was to research the country and create images that fit! It was a wonderful way to combine geography, history and religion!