The Byzantine Forum
Newest Members
ElijahHarvest, Nickel78, Trebnyk1947, John Francis R, Keinn
6,150 Registered Users
Who's Online Now
2 members (Hutsul, 1 invisible), 352 guests, and 90 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Latest Photos
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
St. Sharbel Maronite Mission El Paso
by orthodoxsinner2, September 30
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
Holy Saturday from Kirkland Lake
by Veronica.H, April 24
Byzantine Catholic Outreach of Iowa
Exterior of Holy Angels Byzantine Catholic Parish
Church of St Cyril of Turau & All Patron Saints of Belarus
Forum Statistics
Forums26
Topics35,506
Posts417,454
Members6,150
Most Online3,380
Dec 29th, 2019
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 4 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Member
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
His religious superior would have the authority to write a special dispensation?

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 4,268
Fr. Francis, and the rest of his religious community, have been inadvertently referred to in this thread as "monks."

The Franciscan Missionaries of the Eternal Word is not a monastic order. The priests and brothers are members of a clerical religious congregation, hence they arecalled "friars." Even the original Franciscan order, the Order of Friars Minor, and its offshoots, are not monastic.

Last edited by Amadeus; 11/05/07 04:45 PM.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Originally Posted by Anna
Pani Rose, you mentioned Fr. Augustine is serving as a Diocesan priest. Do you know where? He is a great blessing to the Church, wherever he is.

I did, but don't recall right off. Yeah, I really liked him also.

Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1
S
Junior Member
Junior Member
S Offline
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 1
in 1976 I just came into the Catholic Church. This particular church, within a month, one of the priests resigned as (for the second time) he had gotten involved with a woman and got her with child. Then the other priest went into alcohol rehab. You can imagine my terror, my 'feet of clay' thoughts.

But what I learned is that you cannot build these guys up so high. They are, after all, human. I can tell this has shaken the other guys. Fr. Anthony was all over the place with his homily on All Souls Day, not once mentioning the dead, far as I could tell, but talking about gossiping and stuff.

I can tell that people feel betrayed. EWTN comes into our homes either once a day or constantly.

Again, he is only human. We have to pray that he makes the right choice.

Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 1,028
Originally Posted by Pani Rose
Fr. Agustine serves as a diocesan(sp) priest.

Fr. John is happy and doing well.

Happy... happily married. Just found out from Angelqueen.

Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Grateful
Member
Grateful
Member
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 3,528
Originally Posted by shaid
in 1976 I just came into the Catholic Church. This particular church, within a month, one of the priests resigned as (for the second time) he had gotten involved with a woman and got her with child. Then the other priest went into alcohol rehab. You can imagine my terror, my 'feet of clay' thoughts.

But what I learned is that you cannot build these guys up so high. They are, after all, human. I can tell this has shaken the other guys. Fr. Anthony was all over the place with his homily on All Souls Day, not once mentioning the dead, far as I could tell, but talking about gossiping and stuff.

I can tell that people feel betrayed. EWTN comes into our homes either once a day or constantly.

Again, he is only human. We have to pray that he makes the right choice.

Amen. I came back to the Church (after having been away for years) just a few weeks before the big pedophile priest scandals became public a few years ago. I just had to marvel at the timing . . .

Some priests, deacons, bishops, monks and nuns have fallen to various temptations (sex, money, power, hatred, etc.). BUT: so many more have been true to their vows, spending their lives for God and neighbor. They all need our prayers, and the good ones also need our gratitude.

Lord have mercy !!!

-- John


Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
Member
Member
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 2,214
"Some priests, deacons, bishops, monks and nuns have fallen to various temptations."

If the existence of the Church is not a sign of the Holy Spirit, I don't know what is. If the Church was dependent on the goodness of its laymen and clergy it would have fallen many centuries ago.

Terry

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 42
P
Member
Member
P Offline
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
As an Orthodox I do not accept the Council of Trent of course. Yet, it is true that Orthodoxy has seen celibacy as a higher calling (though without dogmatically defining it as such). I will point out though that in the early church, celibacy was attached to monasticism, and it was monasticism that was considered the high calling, not holy orders. Indeed, ancient monks often tried to run away and had to be forced to be ordained.

It is interesting that you speak of married priesthood as something "to be tolerated." This clearly shows the view that the married priesthood is somehow a second-class priesthood. This opens up a huge discussion that ought to have its own thread; but I see the Churches as historically having views of marriage, monasticism, and Holy Orders that are times rather confusing and in tension.

I think the antidote to these problems is a return to the original New Testament ideas of Church leadership and marriage. Currently, we are closer to this in Orthodoxy, but both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches could continue to revisit the nature of priesthood and marriage in light of the New Testament.

Joe

Here is an article written by Traditional Roman Rite priests explaining the Catholic Church's historical teaching about clerical celibacy. It certainly challenges the widely accepted view that married priesthood was the norm for the Church of the 1st millennia. It also challenges those who favor extending the priviledge for more married men to be ordained to the priesthood in the Eastern Catholic Church. The author's contention is that even in the East, celibate clergy had allways been the norm, and that it was the Eastern Churches who deviated from the original Apostolic practice of the Church, by permitting the regular ordaination of married men.

CLERICAL CELIBACY

"Clerical celibacy has a biblical basis in the evangelical counsel of
Our Lord as relayed in St. Matthew's Gospel (19:12), also taken up by St.
Paul in his First Epistle to the Corinthians (7:8-9, 25-26, and especially
32-35), and confirmed by St. John in the Apocalypse (14:4-5). It is clear
that once the Apostles received the call, they did not lead a married life.

The tradition of clerical celibacy was solemnly proclaimed by the
Council of Nicaea, the First Ecumenical Council, in 325. Canon No. 3,
unanimously approved by the Fathers, admitted of no exceptions
whatsoever
. The Council considered that the prohibition imposed thereby on
all bishops, priests, and deacons against having a wife absolute. All
subsequent councils that have addressed the subject have renewed this
interdiction.

Not only would it be a violation of Sacred Tradition to blot out a
custom decreed for 2,000 years to be absolutely obligatory, but also one must
recognize that clerical celibacy is to be seen not merely as of
ecclesiastical institution, but part of what is more broadly known in
Catholic moral theology as "divine positive law," initiated by Christ and His
Apostles. That is, it is not merely disciplinary in nature.

The Council of Carthage in 390 stated that celibacy of is
Apostolic origin.

St. Epiphanius of Salamis (ca. 315-403): "It is the Apostles
themselves who decreed this law
."

St. Jerome (ca. 342-420): "Priests and deacons must be either
virgins or widowers before being ordained, or at least observe perpetual
continence after their ordination.... If married men find this
difficult to endure, they should not turn against me, but rather against
Holy Writ and the entire ecclesiastical order
."

Pope St. Innocent I (401-417): "This is not a matter of imposing
upon the clergy new and arbitrary obligations, but rather of reminding
them of those which the tradition of the Apostles and the Fathers has
transmitted to us."

St. Peter Damian (1007-1072) wrote: "No one can be ignorant of
the fact that all the Fathers of the Catholic Church unanimously imposed
the inviolable rule of continence on clerics in major orders."

There is a reason for this Tradition. The cleric in major orders,
by virtue of his ordination, contracts a marriage with the Church, and
he cannot be a bigamist
. St. Jerome in his treatise "Adversus
Jovinianum," bases clerical celibacy on the virginity of Christ.

The universal law of clerical celibacy confirmed by the Council of
Nicaea applied, and still applies, to the Eastern Church as well as the
Western. It is noteworthy that at that Council, the Easterns (Greeks)
made up the overwhelming majority. Previously, the Council of Neo-
Caesarea (314) had reminded all Eastern clerics in major orders of the
inviolability of this law under pain of deposition
.

The Eastern Church began at a late date to violate its own law of
celibacy. The Quinisext Council of 692, which St. Bede the Venerable
(673-735) called "a reprobate synod," breached the Apostolic Tradition
concerning the celibacy of clerics by declaring that "all clerics except
bishops may continue in wedlock." The popes refused to endorse the
conclusions of the Council in the mater of celibacy, and the Eastern
Church planted the seeds of its schism.

The German scholar, Stefan Heid, in his book, Celibacy in the Early
Church, demonstrates that continence-celibacy after ordination to the
priesthood was the absolute norm from the start -- even for the separated
married ordinand -- a triumph of grace over nature, so to speak. The Eastern
practice we now see was a mitigation of the rule, not, as the Modernists like
to claim, the original practice from which the Roman Catholic Church
diverged."

I happen to disagree with the author however, on the subject of the married Diaconate. I do not believe that there was ever a major complaint made by the west about married men being ordained Deacons in the East. The Latin Tradition that the priest stands "In Persona Christi" makes sense to me for a reason that the Church held a celibate priesthood in the highest esteem. However, in the East a Deacon is simply a servant who assists the priest and congregation at Mass and serve the community of the faithful(at least that is how I understand the role of deacon). I see no reason why a celibate Diaconate should be held in higher esteem than married deacons. That is just my opinion, however, the Church should have the final word.

Last edited by podkarpatski; 11/06/07 07:32 PM.
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Member
Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 10,930
Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
Originally Posted by Pani Rose
Fr. Agustine serves as a diocesan(sp) priest.

Fr. John is happy and doing well.

Happy... happily married. Just found out from Angelqueen.

Yes he is. He is also much healthier. Actually he had become a skelton of himself before leaving EWTN. It is truly hard to imagine the pressure cooker these guys are in. He is married to a wonderful woman, both love our Lord, and serve them to the best of their ability where they are in life. I am not saying I agree with his leaving the priesthood, but they are doing ok. His love for the Church has not waivered, but he made a choice, right or wrong.

There is another priest who left many years ago and was married. Not associated with EWTN at all, Francis McNutt married Judith, he was laisized, and both have been in the Church since shortly after his leaving. They now have been requested by the Vatican to teach healing prayer to the layity in the Church.
http://www.christianhealingmin.org/ The school is not specifically Catholic as far as those who come to the school. However, they teach in agreement with the teaching authority of the Church and when they are with a totally Catholic gathering, everything is Catholic.

So, who knows what God will be using them for in the years to come.

Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
A
AMM Offline
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 3,411
Quote
The German scholar, Stefan Heid, in his book, Celibacy in the Early Church, demonstrates that continence-celibacy after ordination to the priesthood was the absolute norm from the start -- even for the separated married ordinand -- a triumph of grace over nature, so to speak.

I guess one has to wonder what Herr Heid was looking at, since one need look no further than the Council of Gangra or the Apostolic Canons to see there were indeed married clergy from the earliest times. The western tradition did show an early variance from this, such as with the Council of Elvira, but even then mandatory clerical celibacy probably did not become universal in the western church until Trent. This is a good article on the topic - http://www.east2west.org/mandatory_clerical_celibacy.htm

It doesn't seem suprising that with ideas like the ones put forth in the traditionalist Roman Rite piece or places such as Crisis that the traditions of the Eastern Churches in communion with Rome would continue to be looked down upon.

Last edited by AMM; 11/06/07 11:53 PM.
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
J
Member
Member
J Offline
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,398
This article is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

Joe

Joined: May 2004
Posts: 576
R
OrthoDixieBoy
Member
OrthoDixieBoy
Member
R Offline
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 576
Besides being way off topic, this article is nothing more than proselytizing material for the pseudo-traditionalists agenda. Little better than Jack Chick, imo.

Jason

Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 396
Member
Member
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 396
I find this highly offensive on an Eastern Christian forum. Are you not aware there might be married priests and/or their wives on this forum?! How does this in any way help relations between East and West?

Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
A
Member
Member
A Offline
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 1,131
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
This article is so wrong that I don't even know where to begin.
Originally Posted by RomanRedneck
Besides being way off topic, this article is nothing more than proselytizing material for the pseudo-traditionalists agenda. Little better than Jack Chick, imo.
Originally Posted by Anna
I find this highly offensive on an Eastern Christian forum. Are you not aware there might be married priests and/or their wives on this forum?! How does this in any way help relations between East and West?


Maybe we could all agree that this thread has run its course?

It had a border-line gossip tendancy by its very nature and now it is veering into the realm of "referendum on presbyteral celibacy v. marriage" which also seems terribly inappropriate.

Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 42
P
Member
Member
P Offline
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 42
Originally Posted by Anna
I find this highly offensive on an Eastern Christian forum. Are you not aware there might be married priests and/or their wives on this forum?! How does this in any way help relations between East and West?

How would ignoring credible opinions regarding priestly celibacy help to resolve the controversy over it? You know, it is not only traditionalists in the Latin rite who share the view of the author of the article, but also some Eastern Catholics in the Ukraine. Ever heard of the Priestly Society of Saint Josaphat? It is bascially an Eastern Rite affiliate of SSPX. Their society seems to be doing well, a lot of people seem to support them in the Ukraine. These opinions are out there and deserve to be debated.

I realize that this is a bit off topic, I was trying to respond to Anna's question.

Page 4 of 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Moderated by  Irish Melkite, theophan 

Link Copied to Clipboard
The Byzantine Forum provides message boards for discussions focusing on Eastern Christianity (though discussions of other topics are welcome). The views expressed herein are those of the participants and may or may not reflect the teachings of the Byzantine Catholic or any other Church. The Byzantine Forum and the www.byzcath.org site exist to help build up the Church but are unofficial, have no connection with any Church entity, and should not be looked to as a source for official information for any Church. All posts become property of byzcath.org. Contents copyright - 1996-2024 (Forum 1998-2024). All rights reserved.
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 8.0.0