www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life The Christian East & West Melkites: an Addendum of thoughts

Todd is right on the money here. Which is why I see the Orthodox Church being more interested in cooperation with the Latins in social issues, than in reinstating communion with them. The option for communion has always been there, but the West has simply refused to come back.

Alexandr

What you said, but just the opposite.

The old "If only you guys would be Orthodox again"/"If only you guys would be Catholic again" style of statement doesn't seem to be serving any of us well here.

I was thinking the burden of proof would be with the one who boldy asserts they were not.

But neither of us are much feeling like doing homework tonight, so agree to disagree.

As to our venerable Jesuits writing as presented. Would that it were just that simple that his quote and thesis did show the way.

Acting on his notions of every bishop having complete equality... I guess that then goes on to beg the question about how Patriarchates and ranking bishops work. It also begs the question how one can ever really go into schism, so long as he follows his bishop?

Sorry, but your logic stands on its head. What you have presented is the Catholic position. But have you considered that the East considers the "Catholic" position to be in error? The East could have called for an Ecumenical council at anytime, should the need had arisen. They have not, partly for the Christian hope that the West would return to her senses and come back. We don't need the Latins to have an ecumenical council, but it would be a brotherly thing to do as decisions of that council would be binding on the Latins once they have returned to the Catholic Church.

Please get off the Latin high horse. it is merely another example of the Pride of Rome standing in the way of the return of the West to the Church.

Alexandr

Again, back at ya through the mirror. That statement serves as much to eleveate this discussion as "Please get off the Greek high horse. it is merely another example of the Pride of The East standing in the way of the return of the East to the Church."

It offers nothing to build on.

Truth is Truth. One cannot have an opinion on truth.

Alexandr

So are you interested in a discussion or pontificating to us?

No pontification necessary. I have watched the Latin apologists squirm like a New Delhi gymnast to try to square the imperialistic aspirations of Rome with the Catholic Church. Sounds like a bunch of Philadelphia lawyers arguing over what came first, the steak or the cheese. In reality, it is simple. You changed, innovated, accepted novel positions. We have not. It only stands to logic that if we were all the Church in the beginning, Part A stayed the same while part B changed, then part B is no longer true to the Church.

Come back. We'd love to have you. But please, don't ask us to throw away what the West did 1000 years ago.

Alexandr

Gentlemen,

We all know where we are coming from and where the other is coming from. It seems to me that the point of this thread is to discuss whether the Melkite initiatives are tenable. Of course, I don't think they are because as an Orthodox I agree with Alexandr that we have preserved the Orthodox faith and ecclesiology whereas Rome has departed from it. Rome believes the reverse and I can respectfully disagree with it. Yet some eastern Catholics, namely Archbishop Zogbhy, Patriarch Gregory III, Tod, and others disagree with both of us. As much I am fond of our Melkite friends and as much as I respect Todd's views, I don't think I can agree. And I think that this is where we are stuck. Rome insists that the development of papal primacy in the West is of God and binding on the whole Church. We Orthodox are convinced that it is not, but rather it is a falling away from the ancient faith. The views are not compatible and it does not seem to be the case that either side can give in. Hence, no matter what thread we begin on a subject like this, we always end up in the same place. This is where the rubber hits the road, so to speak. But it is good that we get clear about it because frankly, I often think that the statements that come out of ecumenical dialogues and initiatives spread confusion rather than unify. And getting our expectations and hopes up when it is not called for does no one any good. It just makes us more discouraged when the smoke clears and we find out that things really haven't changed. I'm afraid I'm not very optimistic about the Revenna document. I expect that within a few months we should be getting some kind of clarification from the Vatican. I do feel for my Melkite brethren very much and I discussed these issues extensively with my former spiritual father, my priests and friends in the Melkite Church and I just don't think that the Melkite position is tenable. Now, the Melkites could be right and if they are, then they will be rewarded greatly by Our Lord for their endurance. They are in a tough spot and the charity and beauty of the Melkite Church will always be an example for all of us.

Joe

One of the problems I see is that it seems to me the opinions of Bishop Zoghby for example that the first and second Vatican councils are not binding strikes me basically as dissent; although of a different sort than we normally expect. Having an opinion is one thing, but denying outright a church teaching is another.

Joe,

Thank you for several excellent reminders. I would like to comment on only one thing. You stated:
I would contend that one of the purposes of these discussions is to figure out just how far apart we really are on these issues. Sure, it can be discouraging, but it's necessary.

The next planned session is supposed to deal specifically with the role of the Petrine office. This will undoubtedly stir up a lot of discussion and confusion, and the results will leave a lot of us unsatisfied. But it will be as step forward.

If it pleases God, the momentum will continue to build until at some point we reach what is sometimes called a "critical mass," that is, a point at which very slow movement is accelerated to the point of being almost unstoppable.

In the meantime we can be patient and trust in the Lord.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Father Deacon, perhaps the next session on the Petrine ministry will be the most revealing as to what we can expect in the future. This is precisely the issue that needs to be discussed more than any other.

Joe