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Originally Posted by johnzonaras
In addition to Pope Honorius whom you have mentioned,

etc...

John ... your historical analysis is always very interesting. Yes. I mostly agree with it. Not that I matter. You know much more about it than me. The little I do know agrees with the whole lot you know.

Unless I am mistaken ... the Goths were also Christians ... Arians. The sack of Rome ... the Goth/Roman wars ... were between Christian sects. When Councils fail - use the sword.

The Visigoths (those who came to live inside Italy) were eventually converted to Roman Catholic. Of course conversion in those days was not so ... voluntary. An example would be the mass conversion of Jews following the Visigoth conversions ... when the Catholic bishops declared that all Jews MUST be baptized. It was voluntary ... sure ... but it was lalw and if you were a Jew and did not convert ... you were stripped of citizenship, all your property confiscated, it was unlawful to hire you or employ you for work in anyway ... homeless and penniless ... you were inevitably sent to prison to hear of your children starving to death when you could not pay your debts. You were a target for violence in as much as there was no protection of law for non-citizens. Someone beating you to death would face no charges.

Ahhh... conversion was so much simpler in those days. Convert or die. None of this ... debate about doctrines and such.

anyways ...

In another post you spoke of that the church had always been divided. I am not sure if that is the way to put it. In the early church ... unity was the basics ... and doctrinal differences had not yet become a matter of regulation. And so the differences did not divide them. To my mind Paul fought hard against too much regulation (the Jewish habit). Christianity was more a communal expereince with some shared beliefs.

I do not see the early councils as so legalistic - but more along the lines of what can still be found in remote areas of the Muslim world and called the 'Jorga'. (I will correct that spelling as soon as I find it).

Division only comes following mandatory regulation.

For example: before East and West were divided on Papal Infallibility ... there was no Papal Infallibility to be divided on. Once Rome defined and tried to place that regulatory act upon the entire Church - now there is division.

peace to you and to your church.
-ray

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It is not my analysis; it is that of James Allan Evans who has written one of the standard biographies of Justinian, but thank you for the kudos. BTW, you were right to say the Goths were Arians.

Last edited by johnzonaras; 11/10/07 02:50 PM.
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Evans also has some comments in his essay on Theodora in the DIR(www.roman-emperors.org/dora.htm [roman-emperors.org]), "The next incident in the saga of Justinian's continuing effort to find common ground for the Chalcedonians and Monophysites was the 'Three Chapters' dispute. It arose from an effort to clear the Chalcedonians of any suspicion of Nestorianism by condemning the teaching of three long-dead theologians and it gave rise to a protracted struggle which pitted the churches of Italy and Africa against Constantinople. Ironically, for the Monophysites the dispute was largely irrelevant. Vigilius waged an epic struggle with Justinian and eventually lost, but in the process, the 'Three Chapters' incident revealed the gulf that was widening between East and West. Vigilius was not an unyielding prelate but he knew that if he compromised, Italy and Africa would disown him, which in fact, did happen when he did, in the end, surrender. The pope in the sixth century was anything but an absolute potentate in matters of faith. Theodora died while the dispute was still raging. But before she died she made a last contribution to the growing schism in Christendom." I find the last two sentence the most interesting in the piece.

Last edited by johnzonaras; 11/10/07 03:19 PM.
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Originally Posted by johnzonaras
the 'Three Chapters' incident revealed the gulf that was widening between East and West.

Yes yes.. (all excited) I know something about this. It is interesting as you seem to have parts to this puzzle that I do not yet have.

One of the theologians (long dead) was Origen. A Council called by Justinian was designed to have Origen declared a heretic. But the Roman Pope (not present for the council) refused to ratify the condemnation. His ratification was needed to make it Ecumenical (effective to the whole Church). Keep in mind that no Latin bishop was there ... the ratification of the Roman Pope was all that was needed to make it Ecumenical.

Because the Roman Pope recognized the ploy ... and refused to sign ... the council then shifted gears ... and condemned several monastic communities (who were sympathetic to Rome and also held a great amount of real estate which would reverted from Rome to the Byzantine church).

Three monastic leaders (called the Tall Brothers) and their communities were condemned as 'Origenists' and Monophysites. The Roman Pope did ratify that.

Like all good politics ... this served several purposes...

1) it removed a large block inside the Byzantine empire which had been loyal to the Roman Pope as head of the Church.

2) it made it seem as if Origen himself had been condemned - keep in mind that Origen had become a darling of the Latin church and theologians.

3) a local council (Eastern bishops only) ... it presumed to be presented as Ecumenical (effective upon the entire Church).

4) In condemning Origenists � it was promulgated as a condemnation of Origen himself. Which it was not. But impressions are everything � so it appeared that Origen had been condemned and Latin bishops began dropping Origen like a hot patato.

Even a rumor that you were associated with a heretic (let lone an accusation) was enough to make your knees knock together.

The Roman Pope had blocked the Ecumenical status of the council... by refusing to ratify the results (the condemnation of Origen). But in doing so ... the Roman Pope would appear to be protecting Monophysites ... so what he did was ... he gave up the Tall Brothers to the council (the reworded council). He ratified the rewording that condemned 'Origenists'.

No doubt the Tall Brothers were pawns in this huge game. But the Pope gave them up - in order not to appear to be slack on Monophysites. If he had appeared slack this could be used against him.

The same thing happened to the Knights Templar in the battle between King Philip and the Pope. The Pope had secretly exonerated them - but before he could make that public - Philip burned them. Each - trying to appear to the public as the 'true defended' of the Church. And so the eexoneration by the Pope was secreted away (useless now) only to come to light recently.

Both sides (the Byzantine church and empire ... and the Roman church and empire) were jockeying to appear to be 'the legitimate defender of Christianity'.

The final blow which caused the schism is almost humorous.

A Papal legate was sent to Constantinople. The legate only spoke Latin - he did not speak Greek. He was received by the emperor in this huge anti-chamber where the Emperor sat high up on an ornate throne clothed in gold and silver robes. As the Roman delegation knelt with face to the floor (as was customary) the chair of the emperor (which was on gears) was dropped through the floor and a fast change of robes and crown - the throne was hoisted back up into position and when the delegation stood up - now - they saw the emperor decked out in gems and emeralds ! ... as if a miracle.

This Roman legate ... was the first to issue an excommunication ... however ... doctrine and dogma had absolutely nothing to do with it.

The legate was invited to Liturgy (what the legate thought would be a Mass) in the church (Sofia ... oh what is its name!!??) and during the Liturgy (Eastern Liturgy ... maybe Basil?) he could not understand the Greek nor were the vestments and such ... like Rome. It was all strange to him. After Liturgy he marched back to his quarters and drew up the excommunication and then back to the church and slapped in on the altar. In the name and by the authority of the Pope of Rome (who � unknown to the legate had died two month ago!) ... the Byzantine church was excommunicated for its ... satanic and demonic acts and regalia ... during Mass.

The shot was fired � and the open battle was on ... for who was the genuine defender of the Catholic Church.

But it was habit at the time - that Kings never make mistakes. And so the Excommunication could not be retracted. After all - Patriarchs do not make mistakes either.

Hard to believe.

It seems dogma and doctrine have so little to do with it. It all seems to be the consolidation of temporal power.

What s that book you are reading?? I want to get this all a little clear in my head. It is still murky to me.

-ray

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Ray, both articles are available on line at De Imperatoribus Romanis (http;//www.roman-emperors.org). You can easily find each article on Justinian and his wife Theodora (one of my favorite empresses) by usng the imperial index (a chronological index) or the alphabetical index. I might add that the discussion of the fourth century emperors (such as Constantine) is full and detailed and there is a lot of ecclesiastical material. There is really no bias, just the facts as Sgt. Joe Friday would say. John

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Originally Posted by johnzonaras
just the facts as Sgt. Joe Friday would say. John

WARNING !!
WARNING !!

(you are showing yer age!)



-ray

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What will it take to reunite the churches? Hmmm. Heavy artillery and 500,000 men at the very least. wink If you include the Slavic churches, probably nuclear weapons. wink

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I don't hide my age. I'm middle aged and a full University Professor.

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You know the churches have be separated for for longer periods than they were united.

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Originally Posted by Ray Kaliss
It seems dogma and doctrine have so little to do with it. It all seems to be the consolidation of temporal power.
Ray,

Amen!

My prayer is that ecumenical discussions (both the official ones and "unofficial" ones like these) will continue to dredge up these *embarrassing* historical facts so that they can be evaluated "in the light of day." Once the truth is known, the historical misconceptions can be put to rest. tired


Peace,
Deacon Richard

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Quote
To most Orthodox Christians, the theological differences are immense and deep.
My general impression is the R Catholics tend to minimise the differences between E. Orthodox and R. Catholic, and generally, they do not appreciate the seriousness of the differences as seen from the Orthodox point of view.

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Originally Posted by bobzills
Quote
To most Orthodox Christians, the theological differences are immense and deep.
My general impression is the R Catholics tend to minimise the differences between E. Orthodox and R. Catholic, and generally, they do not appreciate the seriousness of the differences as seen from the Orthodox point of view.

Bob, I agree and I say this not to be contentious.

Joe

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Originally Posted by harmon3110
And to expand on that point, there were political and cultural dimensions to those schisms too.

etc...

-- John

An excellent post John.

I would say more but that would turn my post into my usual book length.

All I can say is that my eyes have been opened this year ... and I am still in shock. If I did not think that Providence wanted me to be Christian ... I would run from it all and become a Buddhist!

-ray




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Originally Posted by Ray Kaliss
Originally Posted by harmon3110
And to expand on that point, there were political and cultural dimensions to those schisms too.

etc...

-- John

An excellent post John.

I would say more but that would turn my post into my usual book length.

All I can say is that my eyes have been opened this year ... and I am still in shock. If I did not think that Providence wanted me to be Christian ... I would run from it all and become a Buddhist!

-ray

I can sympathize. But I'm afraid that if we became buddhists, we'd have find war and sects there as well.

Joe

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Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Originally Posted by Ray Kaliss
Originally Posted by harmon3110
And to expand on that point, there were political and cultural dimensions to those schisms too.

etc...

-- John

An excellent post John.

I would say more but that would turn my post into my usual book length.

All I can say is that my eyes have been opened this year ... and I am still in shock. If I did not think that Providence wanted me to be Christian ... I would run from it all and become a Buddhist!

-ray

I can sympathize. But I'm afraid that if we became buddhists, we'd have find war and sects there as well.

Joe


Indeed. I agree. LOL . . . so it goes.

-- John

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