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Thessalonius,

You miss my point - although I expressed it in a joking manner, I was indeed delighted that there could be any civil discussion about the relationship between Carpatho-Rusyns and Russians. The subsequent remark was an observation - making use of irony - that, the civility of this discussion aside, such would never be achieved on a thread involving discussion of the relationship between Ukrainians and Russians.

I was certainly not making light of the reasons for such, as much verbal blood has been shed on this forum and elsewhere by my Ukrainian and Russian friends and brothers and I most assuredly was not looking to tear away scabs, that are more than ready to fall off on their own, at any time. If you took offense, my apologies. I do have to say that I've had more than a few characterizations thrown at me over the years - but, 'snarky' - that's a first, I think.

Btw, the Irish and English do not share a common ancestry, other than the one shared by all the descendents of Adam and Eve.

The Irish are Celts, as are the Scots, Welsh, Manx, Cornish, Britons (from Brittany), together with the Cumbrians and (Spanish) Galicians (along with some other Celt-iberian peoples).

The English are Anglo-Saxons.

Many years,

Neil

Actually, the Irish and the English do share a common ancestry. Like the rest of Western Europeans, about 80% of both English and Irish are descended from the first wave of hunter-gatherers who came out of the Eurasia with the retreat of the last glacial period. The remaining 20% are descended from the second wave of migrants from the Middle East who brought agriculture with them. The successive waves of conquerors who entered islands--Celts, Romans, Anglo-Saxons, Danes, Norwegians and Normans, left a very thin patina over the basic stock. The English, the Scots, the Welsh and the Irish are who they were--the genes don't lie, and the facts are established by a wide-ranging genetic survey of Britain conducted by Bryan Sykes and others, and summarized in Sykes' book Saxons, Vikings and Celts: The Genetic Roots of Britain and Ireland [amazon.com] . Sykes was the man who discovered a direct descendent of the 9000-year old skeleton "Cheddar Man" living less than fifteen miles from the cave in which the skeleton was originally found.

A more recent book, Before Scotland: The Story of Scotland Before History [amazon.co.uk] by Alistair Moffet, elucidates on later findings, particularly regarding the Western and Eastern Celts:


It is interesting that ethnic groups that fight the most persistently are in fact those who share a common genetic origin: the Koreans and the Japanese are genetically the same people; the English and the Irish are genetically the same people; the Ukrainians and the Russians are genetically the same people; and the Rusyn of the Subcarpathians are genetically identical to the Ukrainians and Russians, while being culturally blended among all the different groups that inhabit their little corner of paradise.

snarky
adj. Slang., -i·er, -i·est.

1. Rudely sarcastic or disrespectful; snide.
2. Irritable or short-tempered; irascible.

[From dialectal snark, to nag, from snark, snork, to snore, snort, from Dutch and Low German snorken, of imitative origin.]
snarkily snark’i·ly adv.

Neil How could anyone think a teddy bear like you would be snarky?

Stuart,

Moffett's point


says what I said.

And Syke's drilling of Cheddar Man's tooth aside, he has rehashed much of the same info in what - 3 or 4 differently titled books - since 7 Daughters of Eve - not even bothering to provide bibliographies these days.

But, he does not claim the English and Irish are the same - his premise is more that there are an overwhelming number of Celts spread throughout England. That the Anglo-Saxons and the Celts were both hunter-gatherers and both crossed the same land-bridge doesn't make them the same folk.

Many years,

Neil

The Atlantic Seaboard gene line, and the Doggerland gene line are both variants of the same common ancestors (i.e., the hunter-gatherer-fisher people). In other words, the Celts of eastern Britannia (the guys found there by Julius Caesar) belong to the Doggerland line. The Celts of western Britannia and Hibernia come from the Atlantic line. But they are both considered Celts.

On the other hand, Celt is actually more of a cultural than an ethnic or genetic label--a goodly number of the "Celtic" tribes of Gaul were ethnically German, but culturally Celtic. So Germans from east of the Celtic homeland (generally considered to be somewhere around Denmark and Pomerania) somehow or other became Celticized. The same then is true of the original population of Britain and Ireland--if the latter are closer to the Basques than to the eastern Celts, they must have been "Celtized" in their turn. That is, the Basques and those dark Irish, the Cymru, the Cornish and the people of the Hebrides must be older than those who came over the Doggerland bridge, and predate the Celts, who were just another wave of colonizers and conquerors.

I am going to make the case for an Autocephalous Hunter-Gatherer Orthodox Church.

Make that "Hunter-Gatherer-Fisher Autocthonous Autocephalous Orthodox Church"

We need an acronym that flows off the tongue better like "HOCNA" or "HOOM". HGFAAOC seems hard to pronounce. Plus there will inevitably be a THGFAAOC if there's a calendar schism.

"We're here to bring you back to the one true faith: the Western Branch of American Reform Presby-Lutheranism." --Reverend Lovejoy

IM, sorry for giving you a bit of the spleen on this. Thank you for your considerate and patient reply in spite of it. For what its worth, here is what I perceived to be happening in this thread. While folks are entitled to their opinion, I was finding myself surprised and annoyed by what some contributors were posting in what is supposed to be a civil discussion. Some allusions to Ukrainian nationhood and as a distinctive culture ranged from faintly dismissive to downright defamatory . When you posted your response - which I apparently misunderstood, and in view of your role as a mod, I was incensed that you were not only allowing this kind of bashing to go on, but seemingly contributing to it. I see now that this was not your intention. The "snarky" appellation was in keeping with the misperception of the intent of your post. Sorry. Please feel free to change the "n" in "snarky" to a "p."

In a deeper sense, however, I was and am finding myself distressed with what these kinds of smoldering ethnic tensions create in my psyche in looking for spiritual nourishment and brotherhood, and for the coherence of an Eastern Catholic Church in my and others eyes: At its worst Catholic with neither a large "C" nor a small "c"
In this scenario feel free to change the "n" "snarky" to an "h"

Sharky infested "C" s Rimshot. Ouch! Sorry.

Isn't it the Western Branch of the American Reformed EpiscoPresbyLutheran Church?

Nope: http://smotri.com/video/view/?id=v166964277c3

Not true, genetically as far as direct paternal and maternal ancestry is concerned Irish and English have almost the exact same ancestors which date as far back as prehistoric times - closest ancestors to modern english and irish are the basques

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

And yet the Basques are linguistically unique (their language is unrelated to any other known extant tongue). This raises the possibility that the Basques are actually the last remnant of original hunter-gatherer-fisher population.