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I've had this thought since Sunday's Orthodox liturgy.

As I'm very much against church divisions I think along these lines from time to time.

Here it is:
Concerning the divisions between the Orthodox and Roman churches. From what I'm told it has mostly to do with beliefs about the role of the Pope.
This is such a minor differance. I see almost no diferance between non-clergy Byzantine, Romans, and Orthodox Christians. For the most part they all have the same beliefs except just one sticking point. They probably all say the same things at confession. The spirit of Christ is higher than beliefs and trumps belief. This is because if the spirit is present the beliefs will eventually conform, but beliefs cannot replace evil with good. Satanism is full of people who have full knowledge of Christian principles, but use such knowledge for personal power.


If beliefs are so important that a minor diferance means that we can't commune together, than what is the chalace for? Decoration? Commune as one and the beliefs would soon merge together, but that would take an act of faith.
The question is how to get these thoughts to the Bishops as I don't personally know any Bishops. (I'm probably even going to get chastized for this posting, but I've been thinking about this since my last communion.)

I think Christ would have a problem with petty divisions causing seperation.

I think it was more than just beliefs that made the church. If the church were just beliefs there would be no need for anything higher (like the chalace).

To go further some Protastant churches do the sacriment of Baptism right. Why don't they commune?

I have studied church divisions. Most non-Catholic and non-Orthodox churches are fragments of what should be the Germanic Orthodox church. These English, Irish, German, and Scandivanians are divided and sub-divided like a box of puzzle pieces dumped on a large table. Put all thier denominations together and there would be a picture of a Germanic Orthodox church. Even Jehovah Witnesses, New Age, and Mormons have small pieces of the puzzle.

I think it is impossible to have a divided church and have any denomination 100% in Christ's will. Some will get A's while some will get F's and most will get C's. Keep in mind even lowest scores will have some right answers and the highest scores will have some wrong answers.

Respectfully in Christ

I'm told it has mostly to do with beliefs about the role of the Pope.
This is such a minor differance.

I disagree that believing or not believing that the pope is the Vicar of Christ is a "minor difference". Just a small example- from talking with a Greek Orthodox friend about artificial birth control... Catholics hold true that artificial birth control is wrong ALL the time, regardless of the situation or circumstances. The Orthodox go to their parish priest to discern whether artificial birth control would be okay for their particular situation. Because birth control (such as pills) can bring about the early abortion of a newly created baby, I do not see how one priest can be allowed to say its "okay" and another might counsel a couple not to use it. Either it is right or wrong in my opinion, and honestly, anything that aborts a baby is wrong. Going beyond the abortifacient aspect, the Catholic Church also instructs on how any method of artificial birth control can be deadly for a marriage as well.--- not to go on an on about this- but it is such an important issue, I don't think any priest or lay person should be able to decided what works for him/ her. When you have a serious issue regarding faith or morals, you need someone you KNOW is protected by the Holy Spirit to teach without error.-- not every lay person and clergy has this protection. However, Jesus tells us that we can be confident in knowing that the pope does.

"The spirit of Christ is higher than beliefs and trumps belief. This is because if the spirit is present the beliefs will eventually conform..."

Maybe the 30,000 + protestant denominations will eventually conform to Christ's true Church, but in the mean time, receiving holy communion is an outward sign that you profess the same beliefs as everyone else receiving in your church. Allowing everyone to partake of the chalice, regardless of their beliefs, would certainly cause a lot of confusion. Those who don't hold the "belief" about confession could receive in a state of mortal sin. Those who don't believe they need to be baptized could receive before having even been received into the Church. In doing that, we would definitely have to question "then what is the chalice for?" God's gift of Himself is to give us nourishment and grace for our faith journey - as well as forgiveness of sins-, but we have to, through forming our lives to Him, raise ourselves up to Him, not lower Christ down to our level. There are a lot of churches out there who are into bringing God down to our level & going by one's own conscience or how they "feel" to discern right from wrong. Divorce may not be encouraged, but it is allowed. Abortion is wrong, but there is no consequence within the particular church if someone procures one. Children are a blessing, but its okay to use birth control or sterilize one's self. There has to be some accountability & thankfully, the Church gives us this great gift. So, before receiving the chalice, we should be in a state of grace, we should go to confession. ---but, if you do not hold these beliefs (like confesseion) to be true, you are receiving Christ in an unworthy manner and as St. Paul tells us, drinking & eating condemnation upon yourself.

"I think Christ would have a problem with petty divisions causing seperation."
I agree, petty division are wrong. But, believing in the sacraments and papal authority are not petty.

"To go further some Protastant churches do the sacriment of Baptism right. Why don't they commune? " They don't commune bc they don't believe that they are communing the same God that we are communing. To them, it is bread and wine, not Christ Himself.

"I have studied church divisions. Most non-Catholic and non-Orthodox churches are fragments of what should be the Germanic Orthodox church. These English, Irish, German, and Scandivanians are divided and sub-divided like a box of puzzle pieces dumped on a large table. Put all thier denominations together and there would be a picture of a Germanic Orthodox church. Even Jehovah Witnesses, New Age, and Mormons have small pieces of the puzzle. "

Many religions hold some truth, but none of them have the fullness of faith & Truth- only the Catholic Church does.

"I think it is impossible to have a divided church and have any denomination 100% in Christ's will. "
You're right, no denomination has 100% in Christ's will. The Catholic Church, however, is not a denomination- it is the one, true Church.

-God bless.
-Alexis

Just for your personal information. The Orthodox Church and use of birth control has been discussed on this forum many times.
You are presenting a distorted view.
Please look at the previous discussions.

Halia is absolutely right!

I am biting my tongue so as not to insult the RC position...so let's not go there.

Alice, Moderator

Sorry I didn't know this has been discussed, as I'm new. I didn't think to search certain topics before responding. I guess my friend has it wrong then. I was going on what she told me; that parish priests are allowed to talk with a couple and discern what is right for them. I'll search the board to read the discussion. - thanks, and sorry again.

"Concerning the divisions between the Orthodox and Roman churches. From what I'm told it has mostly to do with beliefs about the role of the Pope. This is such a minor difference. I see almost no difference between non-clergy Byzantine, Romans, and Orthodox Christians. For the most part they all have the same beliefs except just one sticking point."

There is more we have in common, but the differences must not be understood as merely theological arguments. It will be difficult to bridge centuries of separateness, especially when the worldview of the framers of our theologies have been developed in contradictory ways. My current opinion is that the East and West have completely different ways of seeing, or of living, their faith and their purpose on earth. I may be completely off the mark, but this type of separation would be far from "minor".

Terry

Halia,
Where are the threads on birth control? I searched with "birth control' in subject & body but couldn't find any that matched. Thanks. I really want to read it bc I truly thought the Orthodox think birth control is okay in certain situations. thanks again.
-Alexis

Three of the biggest American misconceptions about Orthodoxy are:
1. Divorce
2. Birth Control
3. Toll Houses

Posting about the three have historically caused virtual mayhem, and cause my eyes to roll back in my head!

Alexandr

Yes, the Orthodox Church does not forbid the use of birth control. YOur statement implied Greek Orthodox were grilled by their local priest or that the priest has the power to forbid the use of birth control. This is not the case. IT is a personal choice for married couples.
1) The Greek Orthodox Church has general confession
2) Even in Slavic churches where personal confession is the norm, Orthodox priests would not ask questions about birth control. There were a few good quotes regarding this in previous discussions from the MP and other sources.

I am sorry you cannot find the previous threads. I also have problems with the search function of this forum.

I don't think everyone understands what I mean by divisions causing errors.
1. If there is division someone has to be right and the other wrong or there would be zero hard feelings.
2. If I have personally had divisions with 1000 insane and sick people it would be very unlikly that I was right in all the cases.
3. If the churches that diverged from the main body are not evil then both sides have errors.
4. As there is good even in some of the strangest cults who would score a low F on God's report card, there is some flaw in groups that are mostly right.
5. I hold that if the 30,000 divisions among Protastant religions were mended there would be a true church. Also, if all of the religions in Christ were to come together as one then and only then would Christ's church on earth exist.
6. In my humble opinion Papal authority is diminished because of there not being one church, but many denominations. Papal authority if (it exists or not) is bound because of divisions in Christ. Of course I could easily be wrong but I go with what I believe is right.
7. Divisions need to be resolved if there is ever to be the true church on Earth. Even some strange (imaginary) cult that believes that God is the light on top of a utility pole that somehow has some piece of truth needs to be resolved with the rest of Christ.
8. Divisions are errors on the spiritual levels above thought therefore thoughts and beliefs are affected by divisions.
9. Even differances about abortion would almost be minor differances in Christ. A question about birth control is more minor than taking the life of the unborn. I doubt if any Orthodox priest would aprove any killing of the unborn. There are priests who abuse drugs. I saw a priest abusing drugs when I was a Jehovah Witness child. It made my stomach turn and I remembered it. Drug abuse is clearly wrong, but modern society considers some drug abuse to just be a minor habit. Due to political forces most people don't consider cigarette smoking to be drug abuse. I equate a daily pack of cigs to a daily hit of heroin. There are political forces that don't want to consider abortion murder.
10. Abortion would probably have slipped by had not some Pope seen through the political smoke screen. Muslims condem abortion too. I have no idea how smoking slipped through, wait yes I do. They told people it was like incense and not a drug. Too many Catholics were hooked before anyone said anything.

Halia12,

Are you trying to foist upon the forum, that general confession is the norm for the GOA? If you are I would like to see the protocol directive from the archdiocese. If you can not provide such, please stop spreading this misinformation.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+ (Archimandrite and Confessor, Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America)

"7. Divisions need to be resolved if there is ever to be the true church on Earth. Even some strange (imaginary) cult that believes that God is the light on top of a utility pole that somehow has some piece of truth needs to be resolved with the rest of Christ."

I must suggest that realizing such a resolution is beyond the capasity of men. Cain did not get long with Abel for differences as fundamental as those which still divide those who declare themselves Christian and will be told "I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of iniquity" to those who call themselves Christian and are known by Him.

Terry

Dear Fr. Anthony,
I can see that my post could lead to misinterpretations and will provide an edited version below:

I was trying (and I guess failed) to point out the differences between Roman Catholic traditions and Orthodox regarding the confessional. For example, the Armenian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Church both use general or communal confession as well as private/personal confession. I have followed the discussion about Fr. Ephraim�s Greek Orthodox monasteries in North America and the growth of personal confession in your Archdiocese, which is viewed in a positive light.

However, the tradition in the Slavic Orthodox churches is private confession only.

Here is my edited version:
Yes, the Orthodox Church does not forbid the use of birth control. Your statement implied Orthodox were grilled by their local priest in the confessional or that the priest has the power to forbid the use of birth control. This is not the case. It is a personal choice for married couples.

1) The Greek Orthodox Church has general confession in addition to personal confession.
2) In Slavic churches general confession is not part of the tradition. In personal confession, Slavic Orthodox priests would not ask questions about birth control. There were a few good quotes regarding this in previous discussions from the MP and other sources.

I am sorry you cannot find the previous threads. I also have problems with the search function of this forum. Did you try contraception?

Finally to all readers, I am sorry that I diverted from the main topic of this discussion.

You said a lot in this post without actually saying it Alice. To talk about it would be to insult Catholics? I hope not.

Alice, with all due respect we should be able to talk about these things without insulting anyone. If forum participants are willing to rise above snide comments or polemics we should be able to discuss this.

I should hope that you can discuss why artificial birth control is right or wrong without anyone being insulted. As a Catholic who has accepted this Church teaching, it is generally one of the first thing I am asked about by non-Catholics amazed that I really "believe it all." If compelling arguments could be made for me that we really did get this as wrong as the rest of the world has been telling us since 1930 when the Anglicans first switched gears on the issue, I would appreciate it. It would be less for me to have to defend.

Halia12,

I still have to disagree with your statement. The only place I have seen general confession practiced is in OCA parishes. Before my exposure to seeing it in action there, my knowledge of general confession was an academic one, coming from sources like Saint John of Kronstadt. In looking through even our Euchologion, there is not even an order for such.

I have had to hear confessions not only in my home metropolis but in several other ones for activities like retreats and never once have heard that this would even be suggested.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+